High Priced Original Luger Manual...

Pete Ebbink · 12-16-2002, 08:18 PM

On auction now :

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...item=748622202

Pete...

tracyp · 12-17-2002, 12:15 AM

Looks nice, but for that price you could have the Luger.

John Sabato · 12-17-2002, 02:02 PM

I agree that the price is WAY out of my reach... but if you had a minty and complete 1902 Commercial Luger (Safe/Loaded) rig that was exported to the U.S. ? My question is what would the added value of the ensemble be by adding the original instruction manual?

Probably not out of line with at least the first bid....

Just my

Edward Tinker · 12-17-2002, 02:08 PM

I was a bit shocked at the price.

So, how many "color" ones have any of you seen?

Condition is everything, except for scarcity. If there were 5,000 printed and 35 exist in the world?

I have not looked for color, but I bet they are rare?

Navy · 12-17-2002, 02:23 PM

I have one of these birds as a part of my collection of Luger paper. Mine is not nearly so nice as Dr Antaris' is...they are very, very hard to find, as is almost any original paper.

Tom A.

Big Norm · 12-17-2002, 05:06 PM

This one has me puzzled. A color manual of 1900 and 1902 Lugers. I didn't know that photography had advanced that much at that point in time. Then the book was published in Berlin but was the book printed in English or German? If it was in English then that is one thing. But if it was printed in German, then the cover printing is a lot different from the 1904 navy manual that Heinz and I are working on. Old German is very difficult to interpret. Heinz is really struggling with it. Then Simpson has a Spanish manual for the Borchardt and has it for sale for only $1000. I want to say "FAKE". But then Tom A says that he has one and I am set back on my heels. What am I missing here?
Big Norm

John Sabato · 12-17-2002, 05:15 PM

Slightly <img src="graemlins/offtopic.gif" border="0" alt="[offtopic]" />

Norm... when you said that "Old German is very difficult to interpret." did you mean that the printed text is difficult to decipher or that the German words were difficult to translate?

I am old enough that when I studied the German language almost 40 years ago, that I the books I used were printed in "High German" or Hoch Deutsch ( and the 'o' in Hoch is supposed to have an umlaut but I don't know how to put that in a message post).

I don't speak German very well, but I do know how to interpret the old print... if that is any help.

Herb · 12-17-2002, 06:06 PM

John, try this, be sure the 'num lock' on your keyboard (on the right side above the number pad) is turned 'on' the little light will come on, then where you want the umlaut to be hold down the 'alt' key and type the number 148 and you will get Ã?Â¶ give it a try. Sid Gariss posted this and many others on the forum on July 26th,topic was "Umlats and other accented letters", a search for it might bring it up.

Roadkill · 12-17-2002, 06:41 PM

Evening,

I think this is what he means:

Suetterlin script: a script, created by the Berlin graphic artist L. SÃ?Â¼tterlin (1865-1917), which was taught from 1915 to 1941 in German schools. It is also called the "the German handwriting". The writing is a standard form of the earlier and very different chancery writing which was mainly used by government officials.

People of an older generation often cannot write any other way and yet both the postman and the grandchildren have trouble reading their envelopes and letters written in this script. When old family documents are taken out or church books are to be read, the knowledge of this writing is absolutely necessary.

The last level of the "Suetterlin script", which is also known as "the German handwriting" - and then there is the older German called "Cantzeley Schrifft".

Here is a copy of it, someone smarter than me can post it, might come in handy sometimes:

http://www.peter-doerling.de/Englisch/Sutterlin.htm

Reference the color on the 1902 print, the process used was called Chromolithography,which is defined as a printed color lithograph in which the image is composed of at least three colors. Chromolithography is made possible by the process of superimposition of a series of colors. Engelmann used the superimposition of the three primary colors as the basis for obtaining his other desired colors (Porzio). The process of color lithography involves the use of separate stones or plates for each color used. The process is essentially the same as basic lithography, but the application of each color is printed separately through careful alignment (Hartrick). It was clear from the beginning that this development in color technology would be geared for commercial usage.

So they didn't have color photographs for the manual, just a series of colored printing plates in the exact alignment with the right mixture of colors.

rk

Big Norm · 12-17-2002, 08:55 PM

John,
the pamphlet that Heinz and I are working on is titled "PiÃ??tole 1904". It was published in 1906 and reprinted in 1913. I THINK that Heinz called it the fractur alphabet. While deer hunting this year, I hunted in an old German/Polish community in upper Michigan and I found a German lady in her late 70's who told me that it would be difficult and time consuming to translate. Very technical. She said that she would not even want to try. She said that while in school in Germany, the alphabet had already been changed. I THINK that the "Ã??" is called a sharp "s". While my pamphlet does not appear to be technical in appearance, every German speaking person that I have contacted says that it is, including Heinz. Heinz tells me that there is also a difference between German army and navy style of writing. I even went to an international grade school and the Head Master did not want to try interpreting. While Heinz is laboring over the translation, I have done considerable running so that I could cross translate as to the accuracy of the print. Its a lot more work than I originally thought it would be.
I have asked Heinz about his progress but I do not want to push him. Its better to do it slow and accurately then fast and sloppy. I am dying to read what that pamphlet says. Heinz is an intelligent man and I trust what he is doing.
But getting back to the pamphlet that started this. The title of that pamphlet just does not look right. If it was not for Tom A, whose knowlege I respect, I would yell "FAKE" unless it was written in English. If this pamphlet was written for the American market, then that will be a different story.
Big Norm

Ron Wood · 12-17-2002, 09:17 PM

This is an assumption of course, but it seems to me that since all of the title of the phamphlet on Ebay is written in English the balance of the pamphlet probably is written in English for the American Market. I would seem a bit odd for the cover to be in English and the rest of the manual in German (or some other language).

Big Norm · 12-17-2002, 09:57 PM

Roadkill,
great write-up. Thank you. But Heinz and me are dealing with a very Gothic-ish style of print. The handwriting that you wrote up isn't the same. Heinz is also using a 1873 German grammer book.
Big Norm

Brandon · 12-17-2002, 10:27 PM

I will now try the umlaut trick Herb was talking about!

148

Brandon...

Brandon · 12-17-2002, 10:29 PM

Hmmm... It didn't work! I'm disappointed,I've always wondered how to get those in posts without copying and pasting!

Oh Well,... <img src="graemlins/drink.gif" border="0" alt="[cherrsagai]" />

Brandon,...

Ron Wood · 12-18-2002, 12:35 AM

Wow! Now I feel really old. Back in '57 when I was taking 1st year German in college, all my texts were written in fraktur.

John Sabato · 12-18-2002, 11:19 AM

the alt148 trick results in:

Ã?Â¶

Just as we were told.

That means from now on I can actually spell

Joachim GÃ?Â¶rtz's name correctly!

Thanks!

Navy · 12-18-2002, 11:21 AM

My copy of the 1902 manual is completely in english and has a retailer's stamp on the inside cover page. Don't remember the name of the retailer at the moment but will post later when I get home from the road.

Tom A

lugerholsterrepair · 12-18-2002, 12:43 PM

Gentlemen, Quite the scholarly discription of an interesting printing process. Amazing the knowledge spread among so few.

From trying to get translations of German documents about the issue and use of Luger pistol lanyards I discovered that the technical military wording was particularly difficult for the average translator. They simply did not know what the words meant. As most of you who have been in the military know, it has it's own seperate term for many things.

Jerry Burney

Big Norm · 12-19-2002, 01:45 AM

Thanks everyone for all the information and a great discussion. I guess that since Tom A said that his book is in English that this ends any thought I had about this manual being a fake. Now I have to find a place in my special file to keep Roadkills note. That file has gotten pretty big since getting on this forum. The book still sounds expensive for a 35 page pamphlet. But I guess that somethings worth is determined by how much someone is willing to pay for it.
Big Norm

Heinz · 12-20-2002, 08:30 PM

Ron, it is fraktur, but a fairly early type style, just like the style in the imperial inspectors marks. I will not argue with the contention you are old :-)

The difficulty, after spelling out the text, is the technical compound words, for example the "Gable housing " is the reciever. An interesting thing is the Navy office is using a slightly different vocabulary than the army terms listed in Still or Walter.

And only Norman would set me up as a language expert. I can order a beer and find the john in a few languages, but most of them is english.

12-16-2002, 08:18 PM	#1
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	High Priced Original Luger Manual... On auction now : http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...item=748622202 Pete...

12-17-2002, 02:02 PM	#3
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,152 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	I agree that the price is WAY out of my reach... but if you had a minty and complete 1902 Commercial Luger (Safe/Loaded) rig that was exported to the U.S. ? My question is what would the added value of the ensemble be by adding the original instruction manual? Probably not out of line with at least the first bid.... Just my __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

12-17-2002, 02:08 PM	#4
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,916 Thanks: 1,992 Thanked 4,506 Times in 2,080 Posts	I was a bit shocked at the price. So, how many "color" ones have any of you seen? Condition is everything, except for scarcity. If there were 5,000 printed and 35 exist in the world? I have not looked for color, but I bet they are rare? __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

12-17-2002, 05:15 PM	#7
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,152 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Slightly <img src="graemlins/offtopic.gif" border="0" alt="[offtopic]" /> Norm... when you said that "Old German is very difficult to interpret." did you mean that the printed text is difficult to decipher or that the German words were difficult to translate? I am old enough that when I studied the German language almost 40 years ago, that I the books I used were printed in "High German" or Hoch Deutsch ( and the 'o' in Hoch is supposed to have an umlaut but I don't know how to put that in a message post). I don't speak German very well, but I do know how to interpret the old print... if that is any help. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

12-17-2002, 06:06 PM	#8
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	John, try this, be sure the 'num lock' on your keyboard (on the right side above the number pad) is turned 'on' the little light will come on, then where you want the umlaut to be hold down the 'alt' key and type the number 148 and you will get Ã?Â¶ give it a try. Sid Gariss posted this and many others on the forum on July 26th,topic was "Umlats and other accented letters", a search for it might bring it up. __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

12-17-2002, 12:15 AM	#2
tracyp User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Peoples Republic of Kalifornia Posts: 391 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Looks nice, but for that price you could have the Luger.

12-17-2002, 02:23 PM	#5
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	I have one of these birds as a part of my collection of Luger paper. Mine is not nearly so nice as Dr Antaris' is...they are very, very hard to find, as is almost any original paper. Tom A.

12-17-2002, 05:06 PM	#6
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	This one has me puzzled. A color manual of 1900 and 1902 Lugers. I didn't know that photography had advanced that much at that point in time. Then the book was published in Berlin but was the book printed in English or German? If it was in English then that is one thing. But if it was printed in German, then the cover printing is a lot different from the 1904 navy manual that Heinz and I are working on. Old German is very difficult to interpret. Heinz is really struggling with it. Then Simpson has a Spanish manual for the Borchardt and has it for sale for only $1000. I want to say "FAKE". But then Tom A says that he has one and I am set back on my heels. What am I missing here? Big Norm

12-17-2002, 06:41 PM	#9
Roadkill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,632 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 17 Posts	Evening, I think this is what he means: Suetterlin script: a script, created by the Berlin graphic artist L. SÃ?Â¼tterlin (1865-1917), which was taught from 1915 to 1941 in German schools. It is also called the "the German handwriting". The writing is a standard form of the earlier and very different chancery writing which was mainly used by government officials. People of an older generation often cannot write any other way and yet both the postman and the grandchildren have trouble reading their envelopes and letters written in this script. When old family documents are taken out or church books are to be read, the knowledge of this writing is absolutely necessary. The last level of the "Suetterlin script", which is also known as "the German handwriting" - and then there is the older German called "Cantzeley Schrifft". Here is a copy of it, someone smarter than me can post it, might come in handy sometimes: http://www.peter-doerling.de/Englisch/Sutterlin.htm Reference the color on the 1902 print, the process used was called Chromolithography,which is defined as a printed color lithograph in which the image is composed of at least three colors. Chromolithography is made possible by the process of superimposition of a series of colors. Engelmann used the superimposition of the three primary colors as the basis for obtaining his other desired colors (Porzio). The process of color lithography involves the use of separate stones or plates for each color used. The process is essentially the same as basic lithography, but the application of each color is printed separately through careful alignment (Hartrick). It was clear from the beginning that this development in color technology would be geared for commercial usage. So they didn't have color photographs for the manual, just a series of colored printing plates in the exact alignment with the right mixture of colors. rk

12-17-2002, 08:55 PM	#10
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	John, the pamphlet that Heinz and I are working on is titled "PiÃ??tole 1904". It was published in 1906 and reprinted in 1913. I THINK that Heinz called it the fractur alphabet. While deer hunting this year, I hunted in an old German/Polish community in upper Michigan and I found a German lady in her late 70's who told me that it would be difficult and time consuming to translate. Very technical. She said that she would not even want to try. She said that while in school in Germany, the alphabet had already been changed. I THINK that the "Ã??" is called a sharp "s". While my pamphlet does not appear to be technical in appearance, every German speaking person that I have contacted says that it is, including Heinz. Heinz tells me that there is also a difference between German army and navy style of writing. I even went to an international grade school and the Head Master did not want to try interpreting. While Heinz is laboring over the translation, I have done considerable running so that I could cross translate as to the accuracy of the print. Its a lot more work than I originally thought it would be. I have asked Heinz about his progress but I do not want to push him. Its better to do it slow and accurately then fast and sloppy. I am dying to read what that pamphlet says. Heinz is an intelligent man and I trust what he is doing. But getting back to the pamphlet that started this. The title of that pamphlet just does not look right. If it was not for Tom A, whose knowlege I respect, I would yell "FAKE" unless it was written in English. If this pamphlet was written for the American market, then that will be a different story. Big Norm

12-17-2002, 09:17 PM	#11
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,988 Thanks: 1,067 Thanked 5,099 Times in 1,676 Posts	This is an assumption of course, but it seems to me that since all of the title of the phamphlet on Ebay is written in English the balance of the pamphlet probably is written in English for the American Market. I would seem a bit odd for the cover to be in English and the rest of the manual in German (or some other language). __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

12-17-2002, 09:57 PM	#12
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Roadkill, great write-up. Thank you. But Heinz and me are dealing with a very Gothic-ish style of print. The handwriting that you wrote up isn't the same. Heinz is also using a 1873 German grammer book. Big Norm

12-17-2002, 10:27 PM	#13
Brandon User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Tennessee, USA Posts: 329 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I will now try the umlaut trick Herb was talking about! 148 Brandon...

12-17-2002, 10:29 PM	#14
Brandon User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Tennessee, USA Posts: 329 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hmmm... It didn't work! I'm disappointed,I've always wondered how to get those in posts without copying and pasting! Oh Well,... <img src="graemlins/drink.gif" border="0" alt="[cherrsagai]" /> Brandon,...

12-18-2002, 12:35 AM	#15
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,988 Thanks: 1,067 Thanked 5,099 Times in 1,676 Posts	Wow! Now I feel really old. Back in '57 when I was taking 1st year German in college, all my texts were written in fraktur. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

12-18-2002, 11:19 AM	#16
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,152 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	the alt148 trick results in: Ã?Â¶ Just as we were told. That means from now on I can actually spell Joachim GÃ?Â¶rtz's name correctly! Thanks! __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

12-18-2002, 11:21 AM	#17
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	My copy of the 1902 manual is completely in english and has a retailer's stamp on the inside cover page. Don't remember the name of the retailer at the moment but will post later when I get home from the road. Tom A

12-18-2002, 12:43 PM	#18
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,763 Thanks: 4,865 Thanked 3,105 Times in 1,429 Posts	Gentlemen, Quite the scholarly discription of an interesting printing process. Amazing the knowledge spread among so few. From trying to get translations of German documents about the issue and use of Luger pistol lanyards I discovered that the technical military wording was particularly difficult for the average translator. They simply did not know what the words meant. As most of you who have been in the military know, it has it's own seperate term for many things. Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

12-19-2002, 01:45 AM	#19
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Thanks everyone for all the information and a great discussion. I guess that since Tom A said that his book is in English that this ends any thought I had about this manual being a fake. Now I have to find a place in my special file to keep Roadkills note. That file has gotten pretty big since getting on this forum. The book still sounds expensive for a 35 page pamphlet. But I guess that somethings worth is determined by how much someone is willing to pay for it. Big Norm

12-20-2002, 08:30 PM	#20
Heinz User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Greenville SC Posts: 1,004 Thanks: 377 Thanked 410 Times in 180 Posts	Ron, it is fraktur, but a fairly early type style, just like the style in the imperial inspectors marks. I will not argue with the contention you are old :-) The difficulty, after spelling out the text, is the technical compound words, for example the "Gable housing " is the reciever. An interesting thing is the Navy office is using a slightly different vocabulary than the army terms listed in Still or Walter. And only Norman would set me up as a language expert. I can order a beer and find the john in a few languages, but most of them is english.