General question re: reliability and failure feedback

Frank H. · 07-16-2004, 02:35 AM

Thanks for letting me draw a bit from all of your experience since I'm new to shooting Lugers (3 now and counting!)

I know there's bound to be a "big" variance here among the condition of Lugers, how badly mismatched / what kind of armorer work was done by whom in the past etc, but in general:

If a Luger is cleaned and lubed properly, correct ammo to prevent mis-feeds etc, if the mag's geometry is right and the spring is proper etc, are malfunctions and breakages pretty rare?

This gets into the topic of shooting / not shooting a nice collection piece, but that aside, I was just curious in general about durability and if there are failures what kind of failures tend to happen (not counting mag & ammo correctable issues).

My Ruger 9mm's are "tanks" without the grace and beauty of the Lugers, but they'd probably run for 20,000 rounds if maintained well without a serious mechanical failure. (But how much fun is driving a tank...)

Would I be thinking somewhat correctly to run a couple of mags through these guns, just every couple of months, take it a bit easy on them?

Thanks for your thoughts, and in my case as of now I've got a VOPO 1913 receiver - S/42 rework, a 1917 DWM Artillery (the "passed off as original" but nicely restored one), and a 1973 Mauser 6" barrel '06 9mm.

Frank H. in L.A.

Ron Smith · 07-16-2004, 09:09 AM

Frank, I am a firm believer that guns were made to shoot. I won't own a gun that I won't shoot. Some of the more reserved members I know, won't agree, but that's why this is called a Democracy. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I would be conservative about running 2 or 3 hundred rounds through a minty high dollar pistol. I don't think burning up 50 rounds now and then would be harmful. The only reservation I would have is if a piece shows signs of bore corrosion do to poor maintenance and high usage of corrosive ammo.. This indicates that,while not visible to the naked eye, the other parts, bolt, extractor,firing pin,etc. May have microscopic impregnated corrosion also. This would weaken the parts,and make them more prone to breakage. Just my opinion,based on 40 yrs of shooting and repairing old guns.
A long winded way of saying. Yes, shoot them, but with care.
Ron

Edward Tinker · 07-16-2004, 11:31 AM

Ron, Frank, I have always believed that having a gun you can't shoot makes no sense. However, when I bought a gun that was over 1k, hell, I didn't want to pop some caps and break a breachblock, thus dropping the value from 1.8k to $500...

Why shoot a valuable collector piece when you can buy another one just like it to shoot?

Good excuse to tell the ole lady, but I want to shoot one, this one is for investment!

Ed

Ron Smith · 07-16-2004, 02:28 PM

Frank, Ed , Just got back from a shooting session. Did'nt get to shoot where I usually do, (200 to 300 yd clear cut) They were logging in the vicinity. And since loggers don't take to bullets bouncing off their $800,000 yarders and such.And I did'nt fancy having a 36" chainsaw bar inserted in any of my valued orafaces. I opted for a different localle. Shot my 1936 S/42(very accurate and not a glitch) my 1917 Artillery ( same results) and my 1937 S/42 "NAVY" ( shoots a bit high, and does'nt like a limp wrist.Very stout main spring.) Once I used a stiff firm grip, it was flawless. And as I was preparing to try out my 1934 Mauser. I looked to my right. And there I was, with only, a loaded .32 ACP, looking back at me is a 350+lb Black bear, about 40 ft away. I yelled and waved my arms. (Bears are terrified of arm waving, ya know.) Finally I popped off three rounds over his head. He decided I was too old and stringy, and left.
So anyway not a bad morning as soon as I change underwear. The one time, I went out in the woods without my S&W .41 Mag. Never again!!

Ron

Frank H. · 07-16-2004, 05:48 PM

Ron, I appreciate your comments very much, and next time we have a significant riot here in Los Angeles, I'll have to try that arm waving thing. (I'd probably at least make it onto the news).

Ed I already have caught the bug of "this one's for shooting, this one I'll keep mint", and my collection is only 3, so, I need more...

Frank H. in L.A.

Michael Zeleny · 07-16-2004, 05:57 PM

Has anyone tried using MagnafluxÃ?Â® / MagnagloÃ?Â® portable kits? This seems to be a cost-effective solution for anticipating collector gun part breakages.

http://www.vobaker.com/ndt/magnakit.htm
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=3826955996
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...tem=2484581567

Dwight Gruber · 07-16-2004, 08:54 PM

Check this parts breakage link for some useful info.

I shoot a 1936 S/42, 300 rounds a month or so, with virtually no failures. I am...not rigorous...about cleaning. I use Mec-Gar magazines and Winchester and S&B ammunition exclusively.

I have a couple other Lugers which I shoot sometimes, a parts gun and an Artillery which is not in pristine condition, but I fall on the side of the fence which doesn't shoot the valuable Lugers on account of breakage potential.

I get considerable enjoyment from both the shooting and non-shooting collecting activity.

--Dwight

Frank H. · 07-16-2004, 09:47 PM

Thanks for the link to your earlier thread on this Dwight, wow, that's sobering the various breakages, but I guess as well it has to be taken in balance with the amount of shooting with "no" breakages, but that prior thread is revelatory.

Re: that list of various "mechanical issues" the members posted about, would it be a probable guess that the 70's Mauser guns might be a bit more breakage free, or is it just par for the course with the design features of the Luger rather than literal age of the gun?

I'm going to enjoy the shooting and "collector - not shot" guns as well Dwight!

Frank H. in L.A.

Vlim · 07-17-2004, 02:37 PM

Hi Frank,

After some really consistant luger shooting the last couple of years, here are the parts I wasted:

1937 S/42
-Ejector spring. Was a repro, replaced by original one. Works better

VoPo WW1/S/42 combo
-Firing pin retainer. Probably due to previous owner shooting home-made crap ammo.

1913 Dutch
-Grip safety leaf spring. Well, after 90 years...

1972 Mauser Parabellum
-Bought with slightly blown-up barrel, again previous owner cooking his own ammo...

I shoot about 100 rounds of S&B 124 grain every week. Both the S/42 and the VoPo have been rebarreled with East-German barrels in the past, so nothing really valuable to break.

I'm easing off on Dutch M11 as it's in too nice a condition to break something expensive. Also replaced the original (fragile) grips on the Dutch and shoot with VoPo bullseye grips that were modified to fit a grip-safety luger.

Also made sure that all firing-pins are of the 'vented' type.

Stevie · 07-17-2004, 10:54 PM

I've replaced the take-down lever spring(weak and worn)and the hold open latch and spring(chipped) on my beat up 1920 DWM. I swapped mainsprings and mag springs around to achieve reliability on that gun too. My mismatched Mauser 42 got new grips because the old ones were ugly and didn't fit. The Mauser seems to be immune from malfunctions, likes any old cheap 9mm ammo.

Stevie.

07-16-2004, 02:35 AM	#1
Frank H. User Join Date: May 2004 Location: Oregon, south of Portland Posts: 84 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	General question re: reliability and failure feedback Thanks for letting me draw a bit from all of your experience since I'm new to shooting Lugers (3 now and counting!) I know there's bound to be a "big" variance here among the condition of Lugers, how badly mismatched / what kind of armorer work was done by whom in the past etc, but in general: If a Luger is cleaned and lubed properly, correct ammo to prevent mis-feeds etc, if the mag's geometry is right and the spring is proper etc, are malfunctions and breakages pretty rare? This gets into the topic of shooting / not shooting a nice collection piece, but that aside, I was just curious in general about durability and if there are failures what kind of failures tend to happen (not counting mag & ammo correctable issues). My Ruger 9mm's are "tanks" without the grace and beauty of the Lugers, but they'd probably run for 20,000 rounds if maintained well without a serious mechanical failure. (But how much fun is driving a tank...) Would I be thinking somewhat correctly to run a couple of mags through these guns, just every couple of months, take it a bit easy on them? Thanks for your thoughts, and in my case as of now I've got a VOPO 1913 receiver - S/42 rework, a 1917 DWM Artillery (the "passed off as original" but nicely restored one), and a 1973 Mauser 6" barrel '06 9mm. Frank H. in L.A.

07-16-2004, 09:09 AM	#2
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Frank, I am a firm believer that guns were made to shoot. I won't own a gun that I won't shoot. Some of the more reserved members I know, won't agree, but that's why this is called a Democracy. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I would be conservative about running 2 or 3 hundred rounds through a minty high dollar pistol. I don't think burning up 50 rounds now and then would be harmful. The only reservation I would have is if a piece shows signs of bore corrosion do to poor maintenance and high usage of corrosive ammo.. This indicates that,while not visible to the naked eye, the other parts, bolt, extractor,firing pin,etc. May have microscopic impregnated corrosion also. This would weaken the parts,and make them more prone to breakage. Just my opinion,based on 40 yrs of shooting and repairing old guns. A long winded way of saying. Yes, shoot them, but with care. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

07-16-2004, 11:31 AM	#3
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,916 Thanks: 1,992 Thanked 4,507 Times in 2,081 Posts	Ron, Frank, I have always believed that having a gun you can't shoot makes no sense. However, when I bought a gun that was over 1k, hell, I didn't want to pop some caps and break a breachblock, thus dropping the value from 1.8k to $500... Why shoot a valuable collector piece when you can buy another one just like it to shoot? Good excuse to tell the ole lady, but I want to shoot one, this one is for investment! Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

07-16-2004, 02:28 PM	#4
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Frank, Ed , Just got back from a shooting session. Did'nt get to shoot where I usually do, (200 to 300 yd clear cut) They were logging in the vicinity. And since loggers don't take to bullets bouncing off their $800,000 yarders and such.And I did'nt fancy having a 36" chainsaw bar inserted in any of my valued orafaces. I opted for a different localle. Shot my 1936 S/42(very accurate and not a glitch) my 1917 Artillery ( same results) and my 1937 S/42 "NAVY" ( shoots a bit high, and does'nt like a limp wrist.Very stout main spring.) Once I used a stiff firm grip, it was flawless. And as I was preparing to try out my 1934 Mauser. I looked to my right. And there I was, with only, a loaded .32 ACP, looking back at me is a 350+lb Black bear, about 40 ft away. I yelled and waved my arms. (Bears are terrified of arm waving, ya know.) Finally I popped off three rounds over his head. He decided I was too old and stringy, and left. So anyway not a bad morning as soon as I change underwear. The one time, I went out in the woods without my S&W .41 Mag. Never again!! Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

07-16-2004, 05:57 PM	#6
Michael Zeleny Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 525 Thanks: 129 Thanked 138 Times in 76 Posts	Has anyone tried using MagnafluxÃ?Â® / MagnagloÃ?Â® portable kits? This seems to be a cost-effective solution for anticipating collector gun part breakages. http://www.vobaker.com/ndt/magnakit.htm http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=3826955996 http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...tem=2484581567 __________________ Michael Zeleny@post.harvard.edu -- http://larvatus.livejournal.com/ -- 7576 Willow Glen Road, Los Angeles, CA 90046 -- 323.363.1860 All of old. Nothing else ever. Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better. -- Samuel Beckett

07-16-2004, 05:48 PM	#5
Frank H. User Join Date: May 2004 Location: Oregon, south of Portland Posts: 84 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Ron, I appreciate your comments very much, and next time we have a significant riot here in Los Angeles, I'll have to try that arm waving thing. (I'd probably at least make it onto the news). Ed I already have caught the bug of "this one's for shooting, this one I'll keep mint", and my collection is only 3, so, I need more... Frank H. in L.A.

07-16-2004, 08:54 PM	#7
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	Check this parts breakage link for some useful info. I shoot a 1936 S/42, 300 rounds a month or so, with virtually no failures. I am...not rigorous...about cleaning. I use Mec-Gar magazines and Winchester and S&B ammunition exclusively. I have a couple other Lugers which I shoot sometimes, a parts gun and an Artillery which is not in pristine condition, but I fall on the side of the fence which doesn't shoot the valuable Lugers on account of breakage potential. I get considerable enjoyment from both the shooting and non-shooting collecting activity. --Dwight

07-16-2004, 09:47 PM	#8
Frank H. User Join Date: May 2004 Location: Oregon, south of Portland Posts: 84 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks for the link to your earlier thread on this Dwight, wow, that's sobering the various breakages, but I guess as well it has to be taken in balance with the amount of shooting with "no" breakages, but that prior thread is revelatory. Re: that list of various "mechanical issues" the members posted about, would it be a probable guess that the 70's Mauser guns might be a bit more breakage free, or is it just par for the course with the design features of the Luger rather than literal age of the gun? I'm going to enjoy the shooting and "collector - not shot" guns as well Dwight! Frank H. in L.A.

07-17-2004, 02:37 PM	#9
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,047 Thanks: 1,034 Thanked 3,947 Times in 1,198 Posts	Hi Frank, After some really consistant luger shooting the last couple of years, here are the parts I wasted: 1937 S/42 -Ejector spring. Was a repro, replaced by original one. Works better VoPo WW1/S/42 combo -Firing pin retainer. Probably due to previous owner shooting home-made crap ammo. 1913 Dutch -Grip safety leaf spring. Well, after 90 years... 1972 Mauser Parabellum -Bought with slightly blown-up barrel, again previous owner cooking his own ammo... I shoot about 100 rounds of S&B 124 grain every week. Both the S/42 and the VoPo have been rebarreled with East-German barrels in the past, so nothing really valuable to break. I'm easing off on Dutch M11 as it's in too nice a condition to break something expensive. Also replaced the original (fragile) grips on the Dutch and shoot with VoPo bullseye grips that were modified to fit a grip-safety luger. Also made sure that all firing-pins are of the 'vented' type.

07-17-2004, 10:54 PM	#10
Stevie User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Ok. Posts: 212 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I've replaced the take-down lever spring(weak and worn)and the hold open latch and spring(chipped) on my beat up 1920 DWM. I swapped mainsprings and mag springs around to achieve reliability on that gun too. My mismatched Mauser 42 got new grips because the old ones were ugly and didn't fit. The Mauser seems to be immune from malfunctions, likes any old cheap 9mm ammo. Stevie.