Erfurt LP-08's After 1914...?

[Pete Ebbink]

Okay, the total (or almost total) lack of Erfurt LP-08's (artillery) pistols after the 1914 date still keeps me up at night.

I think I read in one of my luger books that one theory has it that the Erfurt LP-08 machinery was shipped away from Erfurt, and possibly to DWM...but I cannot for the life of me find that reference...

So,...did Erfurt stop making LP-08's after the 1914 production run because they shipped all the machinery to DWM.

When I review the DWM and Erfurt guns production numbers in Jan C. Still's great book, "Imperial Lugers & Their Accessories" on page 15, the following trends pop up (in my mind...) :

DWM makes the following LP-08's :
1914 - 5,000 LP-08's
1915 - 15,000 LP-08's
1916 - 20,000 LP-08's
1917 - 90,000 LP-08's
1918 - 25,000 LP-08's.

What is obvious here is that there is a really big jump in the number of LP-08's that DWM cranked out after the 1914 run and an even more significant jump between 1916 and 1917.

What could have cause that jump ?

In 1914, Erfurt makes 23,000 LP-08's. None thereafter (assume the reported 1915 and 1917 single specimens are fluks...).

At the same time. Erfurt's regular P-08 production runs as :

1911 - 10,000 P-08's
1912 - 21,000 P-08's
1913 - 23,000 P-08's
1914 - 7,000 P-08's only...
1915 - None reported.
1916 - 80,000 P-08's
1917 - 180,000 P-08's
1918 - 175,000 P-08's

Why did Erfurt's regular P-08 production volume drop so much in year 1914 when in 1911 through 1913 their prouction numbers were ramping up as would be expected during war time preparations ?

Is seems likely that the Erfurt factory was pre-occupied with their 1914 LP-08 activities...so their P-08 numbers suffered in 1914.

Then in 1915, there are no Erfurts lugers; either P-08's or LP-08's...

What were the Erfurt folks doing in the time frame between end of 1914 through 1915 ? Maybe a plant wide shut down to retool and reconfigure the production floor ?

And what caused Erfurt's P-08 output to jump from 7,000 in 1914 or the ~ 20,000 in years 1912 and 1913 to nearly 80,000 in 1916 ?

SPECULATIONS & QUESTIONS :

1. IS IT POSSIBLE THAT ERFURT REVAMPED THEIR FACTORY FLOOR IN YEAR 1915 AND SHIPPED THEIR LP-08 MACHINERY TO DWM SO THEY COULD JUST CONCENTRATE ON P-08 PRODUCTION ?

2. ONCE THE DWM FACTORY GAINED THE OLD ERFURT LP-08 MACHINERY IN 1915-1916, IS THIS WHAT LEAD TO DWM BEING ABLE TO JUMP THEIR LP-08 PRODUCTION FROM 20,000 IN 1916 TO 90,000 IN 1917 ?

Okay, I can go to sleep now...

Let me know if you folks think I am "all wet" with my logic train...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

[Edward Tinker]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">And what caused Erfurt's P-08 output to jump from 7,000 in 1914 or the ~ 20,000 in years 1912 and 1913 to nearly 80,000 in 1916 ?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">This is the easy part, Germany was at the height the war effort and just pushed for as many Lange's as they could.

The lack of 1915's has bothered me for a long time too Pete, although I don't think it keeps me up at night .

I was reading Clawsons (condensed) 1911 book and it is interesting reading, they talk about how Singer geared up, made 500 during WW2 and then let others have the tools and take over production.

My gut feeling is that DWM had the contract for the Lange, and since Erfurt was a gov't manufacturer, they let DWM run with the ball and concentrated on other matters, as I believe they were also making other equipment and rifles too?

Ed

[Heinz]

Pete, let me make some additional speculation. In 1914 the war started. DWM was able to meet initial production. Production increases could have been done by increasing the hours (shifts) worked. Erfurt may have made all of the artillery frames. All of the 1916 to 1918 Erfurts have the artillery sight notch in the frame. In 1914 and 1915 Erfurt may have been producing artillery frames and barrels that supplied manufacturing at both Erfurt and DWM for the rest of the war.

The expense of moving machinery and resetting it up and making it work at high speed again would make it unlikely they moved the Erfurt machinery and then retooled ERFURT in 1915/16. And DWM is not reported to have two sets of tooling. Not reported that they did not either but Loewe was a premier machine maker, why pick up used Erfurt machinery?

Happy wakefulness

Heinz

[Big Norm]

Pete,
you might be thinking of John Walthers book, "The Luger Book", pages 149-152. The information is brief and does not mention the machinery. The sudden increase in manpower requirements for the war effort which started in August 1914, and maybe earlier, probably eliminated the possibility of additional shifts. Walthers book suggests that DWM already had machinery for the Lange pistol. The Lange pistol with its stock was being thought of as a light carbine. The war, like many wars, was not expected to last long. By 1915, people began to realize that it was going to last longer.
Big Norm

[Lugerdoc]

More speculation on LPO8. Other than the barrels, which the Erfurt arsenal continued to make for DWM (I've never seen a military LPO8 barrel that didn't have the Erfurt eagle on it) and a simple cut to the front of the receiver No real specialized machinery was required to switch from PO8s to LPO8s production. Since DWM was the patent holder on the luger mechanism, it's logically to think that they licensed the government arsenal at Erfurt to make the PO8 on a royalty basis. If they wanted all of the LPO8 business, all they had to do was inform the German Gov't that they were not licensed to make this model.TH

[Roadkill]

Look at the production dates in correlation with the progress of the war, initially the war was fought with war material on hand, then they had to replace the losses from late 1915 and 1916. Also WWI was after 1915 an artillery and machine gun war, both types required the LP08. Then the rise in the requirement for the assault troops with Erma making the first MP (the 18.1) with approximately 30,000 being produced by the end of the war reduced the demand for LP08s.

rk

[mauro]

Hello,
This topic is very interesting and tricky as well.
I would like only adding a piece to this puzzle.
In the picture attached a copy of an original Bayer document where the LP08 delivery is described. This document covers the period from August 1st 1915 up to March 10th 1915.
As you can see the Erfurt Arsenal had delivered LP08 during 1915. I guess that these pistols were dated 1914 because of, right now, no pistols are found dated 1915.
It means that the Erfurt LP08 stock was enough for cover a part of 1915 deliveries.



Cio

[Big Norm]

Mauro,
My understanding is that the date on the chamber is the date of the contract and not the date of delivery.

Tom H.
In addition to the parts that you mentioned, there is the elevated front sight, the rear toggle without a sight and possibly a different main spring. Then there is the rear sight and the rear sights mounting ring.
While many barrels did have the Erfurt test proof eagle on it, there was many Army test proof Eagles placed also. These different eagles can be seen in Stills book "Imperial Lugers" page 92.
Since the original plan (made in February 1914 and before the war began) called for 75,000 of the 209,000 LP-08's to be made at Erfurt, there were probably many proofed, but not yet assembled, barrels on inventory in Erfurt. These proofed barrels were probably just simply transported to DWM when plans were changed because of the war. (Data from Walthers book)
Other than that, you are correct. The basic frame, receiver slide, front two toggles with extractor, pins and leaf springs would be the same.
Big Norm

[Dwight Gruber]

From the Instructions for Markings Applied to Pistols 08, 1910 (as amended through 1914) (G�¶rtz & Bryans, "German Small Arms Markings" p.111):

"3. Receiver, hardended: 3.2mm inspector's mark, plus the year of manufacture (3.2mm high, 9mm wide)."

The Notes, appended to the instructions, state:

"4.) Receivers from reserve stocks, where the year of manufacture does not correspond with the year of completion of the weapon, will receive a 2.1mm-high correction for the year of completion behind the manufacture-year in fractional form. For example: 1909/13.

"Receivers newly installed in troop-service weapons will receive this correction according to the manufacturing year og the old components. For example, 1913/09." (ibid., p.114)

Examples of this marking can be seen in Still's "Imperial Lugers", p.78, and "Weimar Lugers" pp. 76 and 82--these examples are Erfurts.

If I recall correctly I have seen one in the flesh--steel--and a few months ago there was an Erfurt so marked for sale on one of the auction sites.

--Dwight

[Lugerdoc]

Big Norm, Re Still's comments on page 92 of Imp. lugers: "many have the Erfurt Army test proof on the barrel" of DWM LPO8s. I believe that Jan was just being conservative here, due to lack of concrete evidence. I would change his "many" to "most, if not all". TH

[Doubs]

"All of the 1916 to 1918 Erfurts have the artillery sight notch in the frame."

Heinz, not all 1916 Erfurt Lugers have the sight notch in the frame. The directive for the arsenal to notch the receivers was not issued until late 1916. Thus, early 1916 production Erfurt Lugers do not have the notch. I have an un-notched 1916 Erfurt.

If Erfurt production data for the 98 rifle and other arms was available, it may give a clue as to the lack of 1915 Erfurt Lugers. With the Imperial Army expanding at a furious rate, I would think that rifle production as well as machine gun production would be given priority and the skilled workers may have been employed in something other than pistol manufacture. Even with the Mauser factory as well as Danzig, Amberg and Spandau arsenals turning out rifles, demand may have exceeded production for some time. Spandau, of course, was also turning out machine guns.

It's still an interesting question and so far it has no definitive answer that I know of.

Mauro, I notice that according to your chart, Spandau turned out 400 LP-08's in March, 1915. I've never heard mention of a Spandau LP-08 and only a few Spandau standard P-08's have surfaced. Do you have any additional information on the possibility of Spandau LP-08's?

[Doubs]

I just dug out my 1917 Erfurt that was reworked by the East Germans. The frame, receiver, barrel and toggle-train are all original and match. (Sideplate and trigger bar were replaced). Anyway, the receiver - clearly marked with the Erfurt Eagle - is not notched for the artillery rear sight. Obviously not all late Erfurts are notched IAW the directive.

[Pete Ebbink]

Hello All,

Thanks so much for your inputs and insights. This is what make the Luger Forum the thing that it is...

I especially like how in the course of getting one question answered, you can learn many other things along the way...!

p.s.

Hello Walker, is there a chance that you might post a detailed photo or two of your 1917 Erfurt w/out a receiver notch...I have been having a running debate with a local luger expert who keeps bagging away & telling me that all Erfurts of this timeframe should display the notch...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

[Doubs]

Pete, I'd be happy to post pictures of both the 1916 and 1917 Erfurts without the notch. I'll try to take them this evening and post them later tonight.

[Heinz]

Doubs, Good point, not all Erfurts have the notch but many do. I was not aware that the directive was from 1916.

The rifle and machine gun production point is also well taken. The DWM production increase in 1915 may have been adequate to meet the handgun need with more pressing nees for the heavy and light machine guns. I am wonderfully ignorant of the Erfurt and Spandau production capabilities in that area.

[Doubs]

Here are some pictures of my 1916 and 1917 Erfurt Lugers without the sight notch in the receiver.

[Edward Tinker]

Nice pictures Doubs, thanks,

Ed

[Doubs]

You're too kind, Ed. I was late getting home and worked with a single light source so the pictures aren't as nice as I would have liked to post.

The first four pictures are of the 1916 Erfurt that was modified for police use. The mag safety was removed and the grips replaced at some point. Otherwise it seems to be original and correct.

The final four pictures are of the E. German rework 1917 Erfurt. The sideplate, trigger bar and grips were replaced and two mags were numbered to it. It is otherwise matching. The number "16" appears on the left side of the receiver in front of the serial number and on the frame above the trigger guard. Between "16" and the receiver serial number something has been peened out... an E. German marking of some sort, I suppose. There's an "X" on the front of the frame below the serial number that's E. German. I was lucky enough to buy this pistol a few years ago for less than $300 with both mags.

[Pete Ebbink]

My Thanks, as well, Walker...

Best Regards,

Pete...