P08 shoots 9x21mm ammo?

Artsi · 09-08-2002, 05:18 PM

Just bumped into something confusing. Have a look:
http://www.euroarms.net/ExOrdinanza/...UGER%20P08.htm

Are there P08's out there chambered for 9x21mm ammo ?

-Artsi

Doug G. · 09-08-2002, 07:42 PM

Could be a way to get around restrictions on owning guns in military calibers?

Doubs · 09-08-2002, 08:09 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Doug:
<strong>Could be a way to get around restrictions on owning guns in military calibers?</strong><hr></blockquote>

If what I've read about the development of the 9x21mm cartridge is true, you're exactly right. It was created to side step the Italian laws on owning guns that shoot military caliber cartridges.

I'm not sure of it's current statis among IPSC shooters in the US today but it gained a sizable following at one time because it could make "Major" caliber without loading it hotter than the gates of Hell. Prior to it's introduction, some were loading 9mm Luger to levels never intended for the cartridge. Having a high capacity 9mm "Major" caliber pistol was a big advantage over a .45 ACP "Major" caliber pistol with only 7 or 8 rounds before a mag change was needed.

unspellable · 09-08-2002, 09:39 PM

If I remember correctly, the 9 x 21 is loaded to the same OAL as the 9 mm Parabellum, has the same boiler room and the same ballistics, and is intended to sidestep the laws of various countries that ban military chamberings. The 9 x 23 was a US wildcat or proprietary cartridge designed to make major for competitive shooting. It has a little more OAL length and a little more boiler room.

Doubs · 09-09-2002, 12:10 AM

[quote]Originally posted by unspellable:
<strong>If I remember correctly, the 9 x 21 is loaded to the same OAL as the 9 mm Parabellum, has the same boiler room and the same ballistics, and is intended to sidestep the laws of various countries that ban military chamberings. The 9 x 23 was a US wildcat or proprietary cartridge designed to make major for competitive shooting. It has a little more OAL length and a little more boiler room.</strong><hr></blockquote>

The 9x21 has been pretty well replaced in IPSC by the .38 Super and 9x23.... both having almost the same case length of 23mm. (So does the Largo case, BTW.) Doing a bit of research shows that the 9x19 is now forbidden in the US in Major caliber class.
The 9x23 as developed by Colt made the odd-ball (in the US, anyway) 9x21 unnecessary.

In Europe, I can understand loading the 9x21 cartridge to the same OAL as 9x19 if a magazine designed for 9x19 is to be used. The chamber, of course, would still have to be 2mm longer to headspace correctly. The move to 9x21 in the US was specifically to avoid the extremely high pressures of the 9x19 when loaded to Major class velocities. Competitors in IPSC no doubt made good use of the extra case capacity. The same performance can be gotten from .38 Super but that cartridge had to be changed from headspacing on the semi-rim to headspacing on the case mouth for best accuracy. Once that was done, the .38 Super gained a following pretty quickly.

None of my reloading manuals are new enough to include 9x21 or 9x23 so I really can't give specifics as I'd like. I do shoot and reload for Largo but I pretty well use starting loads for .38 Super as maximum... especially in the Astra 400.

09-08-2002, 05:18 PM	#1
Artsi User Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Finland Posts: 61 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	P08 shoots 9x21mm ammo? Just bumped into something confusing. Have a look: http://www.euroarms.net/ExOrdinanza/...UGER%20P08.htm Are there P08's out there chambered for 9x21mm ammo ? -Artsi __________________ A golf course is a waste of perfectly good rifle range. (- someone in the net-)

09-08-2002, 07:42 PM	#2
Doug G. User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Illinois Posts: 713 Thanks: 1 Thanked 53 Times in 17 Posts	Could be a way to get around restrictions on owning guns in military calibers? __________________ Suppose you were an idiot.....and suppose you were a member of Congress.....But I repeat myself" ~~ Mark Twain

09-08-2002, 08:09 PM	#3
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,673 Thanks: 773 Thanked 1,620 Times in 528 Posts	[quote]Originally posted by Doug: <strong>Could be a way to get around restrictions on owning guns in military calibers?</strong><hr></blockquote> If what I've read about the development of the 9x21mm cartridge is true, you're exactly right. It was created to side step the Italian laws on owning guns that shoot military caliber cartridges. I'm not sure of it's current statis among IPSC shooters in the US today but it gained a sizable following at one time because it could make "Major" caliber without loading it hotter than the gates of Hell. Prior to it's introduction, some were loading 9mm Luger to levels never intended for the cartridge. Having a high capacity 9mm "Major" caliber pistol was a big advantage over a .45 ACP "Major" caliber pistol with only 7 or 8 rounds before a mag change was needed.

09-08-2002, 09:39 PM	#4
unspellable User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 768 Thanks: 0 Thanked 19 Times in 11 Posts	If I remember correctly, the 9 x 21 is loaded to the same OAL as the 9 mm Parabellum, has the same boiler room and the same ballistics, and is intended to sidestep the laws of various countries that ban military chamberings. The 9 x 23 was a US wildcat or proprietary cartridge designed to make major for competitive shooting. It has a little more OAL length and a little more boiler room.

09-09-2002, 12:10 AM	#5
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,673 Thanks: 773 Thanked 1,620 Times in 528 Posts	[quote]Originally posted by unspellable: <strong>If I remember correctly, the 9 x 21 is loaded to the same OAL as the 9 mm Parabellum, has the same boiler room and the same ballistics, and is intended to sidestep the laws of various countries that ban military chamberings. The 9 x 23 was a US wildcat or proprietary cartridge designed to make major for competitive shooting. It has a little more OAL length and a little more boiler room.</strong><hr></blockquote> The 9x21 has been pretty well replaced in IPSC by the .38 Super and 9x23.... both having almost the same case length of 23mm. (So does the Largo case, BTW.) Doing a bit of research shows that the 9x19 is now forbidden in the US in Major caliber class. The 9x23 as developed by Colt made the odd-ball (in the US, anyway) 9x21 unnecessary. In Europe, I can understand loading the 9x21 cartridge to the same OAL as 9x19 if a magazine designed for 9x19 is to be used. The chamber, of course, would still have to be 2mm longer to headspace correctly. The move to 9x21 in the US was specifically to avoid the extremely high pressures of the 9x19 when loaded to Major class velocities. Competitors in IPSC no doubt made good use of the extra case capacity. The same performance can be gotten from .38 Super but that cartridge had to be changed from headspacing on the semi-rim to headspacing on the case mouth for best accuracy. Once that was done, the .38 Super gained a following pretty quickly. None of my reloading manuals are new enough to include 9x21 or 9x23 so I really can't give specifics as I'd like. I do shoot and reload for Largo but I pretty well use starting loads for .38 Super as maximum... especially in the Astra 400.