Another "expensive" fake Navy

drbuster · 04-18-2009, 10:23 PM

They keep popping up! http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=127285690

sheepherder · 04-18-2009, 10:29 PM

Being as how I know nothing about Navy Lugers (or any Lugers!

)...Could you point out the features that identify it as a fake???

Navy · 04-19-2009, 09:45 AM

It is an over buffed fake at that. The proofs are all wrong as a start; with more/better pix, this gun could be a great training aid in teaching how to spot fakes. And the price is laughable, to say the least.

Tom A

bmac · 04-19-2009, 10:55 AM

You may want to read Tom's Article on "Navy Luger Inspection". It's a very good article to start with.

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=11734

Bmac

Quote:

Originally Posted by postino

Being as how I know nothing about Navy Lugers (or any Lugers!

)...Could you point out the features that identify it as a fake???

sheepherder · 04-19-2009, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bmac

You may want to read Tom's Article on "Navy Luger Inspection". It's a very good article to start with.

Why, yes, I did read it. It doesn't say how to identify a fake from four pictures.

How do you identify a fake from these four pics???

Really, I'd like to know what jumps out at you from these pics that yells "fake"...

Inquiring minds want to know...

Edit: Wups! Sorry...*four* pics...

To the best of my knowledge, I've never seen a Navy Luger in person. Tom's thread describes how to test a navy but it assumes the reader has the weapon in hand, and knows what it should look like (or its features). It then describes the differences.

I don't know what it should look like. Or what it shouldn't look like. But I'd like to.

Do you have a Navy that you could post a pic of, showing what tipped you off that this one was fake???

It's not inconceivable that I may want to purchase one, in the future...

sheepherder · 04-19-2009, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom_A

...this gun could be a great training aid in teaching how to spot fakes...

+1

Great idea! You could add it to your thread!

I would like to see a visual aid on spotting fakes.

Navy · 04-19-2009, 02:43 PM

The biggest red flag is the gun being Crown M proofed on the left and Crown N on the right.
Tom A

drbuster · 04-19-2009, 03:03 PM

Postino, thanks for admitting your inexperience. Lots of folks are in the same boat as this monstrosity wouldn't be priced so high. Obviously, the seller is also ignorant of what he has. The most obvious thing is the "repro" rear Navy sight. Look at the rear profile and you will see that the edge of the sight (rear edge) is leaning towards the front of the gun. A real Navy sight leans towards the REAR of the gun! This obvious flaw was common with the "early" fakes, but later on even this flaw was corrected. A 1914 type Navy luger should have a wide rear toggle flange (not shown in the picture) but you should always ask to see this feature. People who say that "some got through with the regular narrow flange" are most probably dead wrong. Keep in mind that the fakers usually start with a 1920 commercial with a short frame already there and then just add a 6" barrel, etc. The crown/M proofs are a science unto themselves and are important. Read well the thread alluded to above about these proofs. I would say, as a rule of thumb, consider 1916, 1917 and especially 1918 dated Navy lugers as fake until proven otherwise. If you have an opportunity to buy one, the seller should have no qualms about your taking pictures of it. If he does, walk away. Post those pics here and get some opinions before shelling out big bucks. Hope this helps a little.

sheepherder · 04-19-2009, 04:40 PM

OK: I saw the Crown/M, but don't see the Crown/N on the other side...maybe because I don't know where to look for the proof...

The rear sight leaning...I didn't catch that at all...

Wouldn't a "good fake" have to have a whole new fake rear toggle w/sight machined & blued to fool anyone??? Just screwing on a sight (even an accurate one) wouldn't fool anyone...(That's a guess)...

I'm going to blow up and print out the fake referred to here, along with a real Navy from the other threads...

As someone else commented in another thread, the last of the WWII vets are dying off, and their sons & daughters have no idea what's in that footlocker in the attic...

Mauser720 · 04-19-2009, 05:12 PM

The seller's listing also states that the gun is being sold "as is" and that the sale will be final with no return. IMHO that is never a good sign.

sheepherder · 04-19-2009, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom_A

The biggest red flag is the gun being Crown M proofed on the left and Crown N on the right.
Tom A

OK, again I show my ignorance...My commercial Luger has the Crown/N on the left breechside...Does that mean the Crown/M on the left of the GB Luger is a faked proof??? Somebody actually had a steel stamp (or laser or chisel engraving) made up just to crank out fake Navy Lugers???

drbuster · 04-19-2009, 07:32 PM

Postino, commercial Navy lugers do not have the crown/M proof as they are not military guns. Prior to 1912 they had the commercial "BUG" proofs and later the corwn/N proofs. This fake on GB has the C/N proof on its side on the right side of the receiver. This was an obvious goof on the part of the faker as he should have realized that the C/N proof should NEVER appear on a military luger unless it is a 1920 era Weimar rework (another subject). Pete Ebbink in his earlier post said that this fake was probably made early in the faker's career as these goofs become less and less obvious later on. The Navy rear sight is very important. I have tried to post pictures of real Navy profile sights. Note the second picture shows the wide rear toggle pin.

drbuster · 04-19-2009, 07:36 PM

Better view of the rear sight.

Big Norm · 05-10-2009, 02:19 AM

Postino,

Check out

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...threadid=16554

For a better description of a fake toogle.

Big Norm

Big Norm · 05-10-2009, 02:21 AM

Postino,

Check out

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...threadid=16554

For a better description of a fake toggle.
Big Norm

sheepherder · 05-10-2009, 07:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Norm

Postino,

Check out

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...threadid=16554

For a better description of a fake toggle.
Big Norm

Thanks, Big Norm! I think I have the toggle specs down now...but the wide rear toggle flange and axle pin are still not clear to me...they may be to you that know Navy Lugers, but as I've never seen one, I'm lost...

If you have pics of those two areas, why not post them to that 2007 thread for us n00bies to copy out and print???

drbuster · 05-10-2009, 01:05 PM

Postino, I don't have ready available comparison photos side by side of regular and wide flanged rear toggle pins but suffice it to say, if you remove the rear toggle pin fron any non-1914 type Navy luger and get a feeling of the width of the outer flange, the wide flange is visibly and to the touch significantly wider. The hole drilled into the rear of the receiver is also rimmed wider to allow this wider flange to seat. Keep in mind that the ONLY Navy lugers with this wide flange were the 1916, 1917 and 1918 dated Navies. Earlier Navy models had the usual narrow flange. Also keep in mind that this fact is very important as the most frequently faked Navies are these models as they were easiest to convert from cheaper 1920 commercial lugers.

Sieger · 05-11-2009, 12:58 AM

Gentlemen:

I had trouble with the seller of this fake in a transaction last year involving a rifle.

Paying by credit card has its advantages, as, at least, I didn't get burned financially.

Sieger

Big Norm · 05-11-2009, 02:12 AM

Postino,

I have tried many times to copy those comparison pictures of the fake navy toggle that are posted in that post that I recommended for the very reason I posted the post here. They were made by Ron Wood and I think that they should be included in a sticky because this topic comes up quite often. I am just too much of a dummy to be able to post only the pictures. So I book mark the post where I keep them along with other Luger information that I have accumulated over time on this forum.

The toggle pin with the wide flange would be difficult to show in a picture. But once you see one, you will easily remember it. The flange stands out. The flange fits snug in a real navy toggle. If you see a space between the flange on the pin and the body on the toggle, then you have a P-08 pin in a P-04 body. A lot of times the P-04 pin gets lost or falls out and the seller will just put a P-08 pin in there. Thats why you should strip a navy Luger for inspection before paying for it. Its really hard to find a replacement navy pin if the pin in your navy is for a P-08.

Pretty much that same thing about the fake toggle knobs. The fake ones have a really flat surface in comparison to a real toggle knob. Once you feel one you will know what I mean. But its sometimes hard to really see in a stand alone picture.
Norm

04-18-2009, 10:23 PM	#1
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Another "expensive" fake Navy They keep popping up! http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=127285690

04-19-2009, 07:32 PM	#12
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Postino, commercial Navy lugers do not have the crown/M proof as they are not military guns. Prior to 1912 they had the commercial "BUG" proofs and later the corwn/N proofs. This fake on GB has the C/N proof on its side on the right side of the receiver. This was an obvious goof on the part of the faker as he should have realized that the C/N proof should NEVER appear on a military luger unless it is a 1920 era Weimar rework (another subject). Pete Ebbink in his earlier post said that this fake was probably made early in the faker's career as these goofs become less and less obvious later on. The Navy rear sight is very important. I have tried to post pictures of real Navy profile sights. Note the second picture shows the wide rear toggle pin. Attached Thumbnails

04-19-2009, 07:36 PM	#13
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Better view of the rear sight. Attached Thumbnails

05-10-2009, 02:21 AM	#15
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Fake Navy Toggle Postino, Check out http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...threadid=16554 For a better description of a fake toggle. Big Norm

04-18-2009, 10:29 PM	#2
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,182 Thanks: 1,398 Thanked 4,440 Times in 2,328 Posts	Being as how I know nothing about Navy Lugers (or any Lugers! )...Could you point out the features that identify it as a fake???

04-19-2009, 09:45 AM	#3
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	It is an over buffed fake at that. The proofs are all wrong as a start; with more/better pix, this gun could be a great training aid in teaching how to spot fakes. And the price is laughable, to say the least. Tom A

04-19-2009, 02:43 PM	#7
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	The biggest red flag is the gun being Crown M proofed on the left and Crown N on the right. Tom A

04-19-2009, 03:03 PM	#8
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Postino, thanks for admitting your inexperience. Lots of folks are in the same boat as this monstrosity wouldn't be priced so high. Obviously, the seller is also ignorant of what he has. The most obvious thing is the "repro" rear Navy sight. Look at the rear profile and you will see that the edge of the sight (rear edge) is leaning towards the front of the gun. A real Navy sight leans towards the REAR of the gun! This obvious flaw was common with the "early" fakes, but later on even this flaw was corrected. A 1914 type Navy luger should have a wide rear toggle flange (not shown in the picture) but you should always ask to see this feature. People who say that "some got through with the regular narrow flange" are most probably dead wrong. Keep in mind that the fakers usually start with a 1920 commercial with a short frame already there and then just add a 6" barrel, etc. The crown/M proofs are a science unto themselves and are important. Read well the thread alluded to above about these proofs. I would say, as a rule of thumb, consider 1916, 1917 and especially 1918 dated Navy lugers as fake until proven otherwise. If you have an opportunity to buy one, the seller should have no qualms about your taking pictures of it. If he does, walk away. Post those pics here and get some opinions before shelling out big bucks. Hope this helps a little.

04-19-2009, 04:40 PM	#9
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,182 Thanks: 1,398 Thanked 4,440 Times in 2,328 Posts	OK: I saw the Crown/M, but don't see the Crown/N on the other side...maybe because I don't know where to look for the proof... The rear sight leaning...I didn't catch that at all... Wouldn't a "good fake" have to have a whole new fake rear toggle w/sight machined & blued to fool anyone??? Just screwing on a sight (even an accurate one) wouldn't fool anyone...(That's a guess)... I'm going to blow up and print out the fake referred to here, along with a real Navy from the other threads... As someone else commented in another thread, the last of the WWII vets are dying off, and their sons & daughters have no idea what's in that footlocker in the attic...

04-19-2009, 05:12 PM	#10
Mauser720 User Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Kansas Posts: 535 Thanks: 18 Thanked 49 Times in 33 Posts	The seller's listing also states that the gun is being sold "as is" and that the sale will be final with no return. IMHO that is never a good sign.

05-10-2009, 02:19 AM	#14
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Postino, Check out http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...threadid=16554 For a better description of a fake toogle. Big Norm

05-10-2009, 01:05 PM	#17
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Postino, I don't have ready available comparison photos side by side of regular and wide flanged rear toggle pins but suffice it to say, if you remove the rear toggle pin fron any non-1914 type Navy luger and get a feeling of the width of the outer flange, the wide flange is visibly and to the touch significantly wider. The hole drilled into the rear of the receiver is also rimmed wider to allow this wider flange to seat. Keep in mind that the ONLY Navy lugers with this wide flange were the 1916, 1917 and 1918 dated Navies. Earlier Navy models had the usual narrow flange. Also keep in mind that this fact is very important as the most frequently faked Navies are these models as they were easiest to convert from cheaper 1920 commercial lugers.

05-11-2009, 12:58 AM	#18
Sieger User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: New York, NY Posts: 1,575 Thanks: 2,124 Thanked 400 Times in 249 Posts	Gentlemen: I had trouble with the seller of this fake in a transaction last year involving a rifle. Paying by credit card has its advantages, as, at least, I didn't get burned financially. Sieger

05-11-2009, 02:12 AM	#19
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Postino, I have tried many times to copy those comparison pictures of the fake navy toggle that are posted in that post that I recommended for the very reason I posted the post here. They were made by Ron Wood and I think that they should be included in a sticky because this topic comes up quite often. I am just too much of a dummy to be able to post only the pictures. So I book mark the post where I keep them along with other Luger information that I have accumulated over time on this forum. The toggle pin with the wide flange would be difficult to show in a picture. But once you see one, you will easily remember it. The flange stands out. The flange fits snug in a real navy toggle. If you see a space between the flange on the pin and the body on the toggle, then you have a P-08 pin in a P-04 body. A lot of times the P-04 pin gets lost or falls out and the seller will just put a P-08 pin in there. Thats why you should strip a navy Luger for inspection before paying for it. Its really hard to find a replacement navy pin if the pin in your navy is for a P-08. Pretty much that same thing about the fake toggle knobs. The fake ones have a really flat surface in comparison to a real toggle knob. Once you feel one you will know what I mean. But its sometimes hard to really see in a stand alone picture. Norm