Hold open devices

drbuster · 06-21-2003, 02:30 PM

I have been told in general terms that hold open devices were not installed on commercial guns but were in military lugers, especially later in WW1 production. Earlier WW1 pieces had the hold open installed later, often with proof marks attesting to that modification on the right side of the frame. But this is not what I observe, as witness my 1900 AE #9595, 1906 9mm AE #25755, and 1906 7.65 mm DWM Commercial #33115, all of which have factory installed hold open devices. My LATER 1908 commercial 9mm #59055 does not have the hold open, as expected. Does anyone know of any explanation for this. What gives?

Herb · 06-21-2003, 02:49 PM

Herb, according to Fred Datig in his 'The Luger Pistol' he says that the holdopen was discontinued in Lugers with the introduction of the 1908 model made for the Army. He further states that models both with and without the holdopen have been encountered as early as 1909 (?). Going on, he says with the outbreak of the war all models had the holdopen. He says that models produced without it and not later converted were of a relatively small quantity and are quite scarce. He makes no comparison between military and commercial. That is about all I can find in my references but I'll keep digging.

Ron Wood · 06-21-2003, 02:59 PM

The early Luger was originally designed with a hold open device. When the Army decided to adapt the Luger as a standard sidearm in 1908, as cost cutting measures, it was determined that the weapon would not have a grip safety, no stock lug (remember that the '04 Navy was already a standard German military weapon and did have a stock lug)and further, the hold open was eliminated. The 1908 Commercial followed the design of the military weapon, therefore it also had no hold open device.

The Luger was not in the field very long when it was discovered that the hold open was a very useful feature, both for cleaning without field stripping and most importantly...the gun was out of ammo...time to reload!! Reloading was also speeded up because you didn't have to grasp the toggle knobs to cycle the action to load the first round of the new magazine, just slap the raised toggle backward and bang away.

The majority of the military weapons were returned to depot to add the hold open or it was added when a weapon came in for some other repair or refurbishment. Some commercial pieces also were modified, perhaps those belonging to officers who had purchased them privately or civilians who wished to have the hold open capability. Of course, once it was determined that the hold open was needed, all subsequent production incorporated the device, probably in the latter part of 1909.

drbuster · 06-21-2003, 04:00 PM

Thanks Ron and Herb for the prompt accurate info. I got pretty much the same feedback from Mike Krause today when I posed this question to him.

06-21-2003, 02:30 PM	#1
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Hold open devices I have been told in general terms that hold open devices were not installed on commercial guns but were in military lugers, especially later in WW1 production. Earlier WW1 pieces had the hold open installed later, often with proof marks attesting to that modification on the right side of the frame. But this is not what I observe, as witness my 1900 AE #9595, 1906 9mm AE #25755, and 1906 7.65 mm DWM Commercial #33115, all of which have factory installed hold open devices. My LATER 1908 commercial 9mm #59055 does not have the hold open, as expected. Does anyone know of any explanation for this. What gives?

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06-21-2003, 02:49 PM	#2
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Herb, according to Fred Datig in his 'The Luger Pistol' he says that the holdopen was discontinued in Lugers with the introduction of the 1908 model made for the Army. He further states that models both with and without the holdopen have been encountered as early as 1909 (?). Going on, he says with the outbreak of the war all models had the holdopen. He says that models produced without it and not later converted were of a relatively small quantity and are quite scarce. He makes no comparison between military and commercial. That is about all I can find in my references but I'll keep digging. __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

06-21-2003, 02:59 PM	#3
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,035 Thanks: 1,106 Thanked 5,242 Times in 1,719 Posts	The early Luger was originally designed with a hold open device. When the Army decided to adapt the Luger as a standard sidearm in 1908, as cost cutting measures, it was determined that the weapon would not have a grip safety, no stock lug (remember that the '04 Navy was already a standard German military weapon and did have a stock lug)and further, the hold open was eliminated. The 1908 Commercial followed the design of the military weapon, therefore it also had no hold open device. The Luger was not in the field very long when it was discovered that the hold open was a very useful feature, both for cleaning without field stripping and most importantly...the gun was out of ammo...time to reload!! Reloading was also speeded up because you didn't have to grasp the toggle knobs to cycle the action to load the first round of the new magazine, just slap the raised toggle backward and bang away. The majority of the military weapons were returned to depot to add the hold open or it was added when a weapon came in for some other repair or refurbishment. Some commercial pieces also were modified, perhaps those belonging to officers who had purchased them privately or civilians who wished to have the hold open capability. Of course, once it was determined that the hold open was needed, all subsequent production incorporated the device, probably in the latter part of 1909. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

06-21-2003, 04:00 PM	#4
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Thanks Ron and Herb for the prompt accurate info. I got pretty much the same feedback from Mike Krause today when I posed this question to him.