My 1921 Police Luger

don95sml · 12-31-2002, 02:52 PM

Please join me in examining my first Luger purchase! If the description is overly long, it's because I hope to generate comments that will help me understand in more detail what seems to be a pistol with an interesting history. If I didn't goof, you should see photos at the end of this post.

The toggle has DWM logo and is squared and knurled type. Receiver is stamped 1921 on top and 6187 on left side. Frame has stock lug, no grip safety. 4" barrel in 9 mm, underside stamped 6187 and w8,84. Front of frame stamped 6187 over letter suffix "a". Front grip strap of frame originally stamped W.I.R.158 (indicating police issue?). Number was later X'd out and changed to S.B.5308 (indicating rework and/or reissue?). Thumb safety shows GESICHERT when in rear position. Sights are fixed V notch rear, dovetail front. Wood base magazine, no markings. Checkered walnut grips with no borders. Upper left corner of left grip panel has semicircular cutout. I believe this, along with hole in frame under sideplate, indicates a magazine safety once existed but was removed. Has sear safety (added during 1930s?). Firing pin is newer (1930s) fluted design. All the proper small metal parts (including firing pin) stamped 87. Breechblock, stamped 87, is also stamped 13 just to right of firing pin spring retainer. (May relate to rework or replacement of firing pin?)

Now for the proof marks. Right side of receiver stamped with 3 proofs. The 2 leftmost (identical) show an eagle over letters WaAx, where the last character is unrecognizable (not an "x", but possibly a "4"). The eagle looks like a simplified version of website proof 28 or 39. It consists only of 3 curved entities representing the 2 wings plus a head/body. The outline of the central entity is open slightly at top of eagle's head. A smaller version of same proof also stamped on left side of breechblock. The third (rightmost) proof stamped on receiver is a different eagle design not shown on website. It consists of a perfectly circular body plus fairly detailed head, wings, legs, and tail. There are characters under this eagle which are unreadable. A much smaller version of same proof also stamped on top rear of barrel.

Finish was purported by seller to be original. Bluing looks to me like 80% or better. Strawing is all but gone. Evidence of light rust on top of receiver which may have been buffed off. Bore is excellent to minty. Pistol has been shot extensively, judging from wear marks on receiver.

I was happy with this pistol when received, and the $975 price was acceptable at the time. I disassembled it the day I got it, but didn't get around to a really thorough inspection until about 2 weeks later. Then, when I removed the right grip panel (the very last part inspected), I was dismayed to find that it was stamped 71, not 87. Color appears identical, but checkering is somewhat sharper than on left panel. The seller did not claim all-matching parts, but neither did he inform me of the mismatch. Although I wanted a pistol I could shoot occasionally, this one now seems to be very expensive for a shooter. Your honest comments on value would be appreciated, but be forewarned that the seller is a reputable dealer known to at least some of you experts. Perhaps there are some redeeming qualities you can point to that would make me feel better about the price?

Hopefully, the proofs and other markings will enable you to enlighten me further about the history of this pistol.

Edward Tinker · 12-31-2002, 03:00 PM

Well, if all other items are matching...

To me, a grip isn't like having a breechblock non-matching. There was a long thread on this issue months ago.

I will re-read your post again closer (trying to learn about Police Lugers and centering on these buggers) and match it against what little I know! Meanwhile, others might chime in.

Looked over everything and can chime in myself a bit: Good pictures BTW, Quote from Weimer Lugers by Still: the German Army and Police acceptance Stamp of WaAx4 is a Dove, a precurser to the eagle acceptance stamp and according to Still, "Mostly found on newly manufactured 1920 & 1921 dated 20 DWM Lugers and 1920, 1921, 1920/1920 and 1920/1921 stamped alphabet DWM Lugers."

You should also have some police acceptance stamps on it?

The serial number range is consistant with an alphabet DWM 1921 army or police.

The grip strap markings are unit or more probably Prussian State Police grip strap markings. A capital S would indicate Schutzpolizei (municipal police force), the B might be Berlin as the Admiinstrtive disctrict?

These are guesses from looking at the book. Others?

policeluger · 12-31-2002, 06:58 PM

don95sml,
Will try and help if I can. "W.I.R." is most likly a WW1 military unit, and I can not find a reference too it. "S.B. 5380." is "Schutzpolizei Berlin" according too Jan Still, pg 196 of Weimar Lugers, and 5380 is gun number, not the number of Lugers in that distrct but weapon number. I would not let the non matching grip panel get too me. It happens often on repair/rework and yours is a police rework of a WW1 gun. With a non matching mag $975 may be a bit high. But when you factor in the cost of searching out gun shows and shops too find what your looking for, well if you are happy that is what counts. It was by no means overpriced, perhaps just top dollar.

Ron Wood · 12-31-2002, 10:36 PM

don95sml
Have to go along with policeluger. Your purchase is definately elevated above shooter status. It actually is quite a nice piece. Your purchase price may seem a bit steep now, "top dollar" as pointed out, but it is by no means outrageous and you may be hard pressed to find another such interesting Luger in that condition at that price.

MauserLugers · 01-01-2003, 12:14 AM

Hi,
I have a somewhat different opinion of what your Luger is. The dated 1921 DWM in the NS, A, or B blocks were of new manufacture in my opinion. The WaA4 was only used on these new models made in 1921. The W.I.R. 158 was either an Weimar military marking or a Weimar Police marking that was at some time re-assigned to the Berlin district. I'm trying to remember what my 1921 Lugers have on them and I believe that the grips are usually blank, but numbered would also be correct. You did not mention if the one grip was numbered 87 or was blank. The mis-matched grip has obviously been replaced at some time, as when this Luger was originally manufactured both grips were either blank or both were numbered 87. You have to remember that these Lugers were reworked during the Nazi era and a mis-matched grip could be a legit grip as fitted when the magazine safety was clipped or removed, or the sear safety put on. Naturally we would all like them either both blank or both matching, but being reworked with the police requirements does leave the possibility of it being totally correct with the 71 numbered grip. This is only my opinion and I'm sure others with disagree.

Lugerdoc · 01-01-2003, 11:11 AM

don95, Your 1921 Police luger appears to be an excellent example of this type. Your matching firing pin my very well have had the relief grooves cut into it when the sear safety was added. I've seen a lot of these modified FPs, that are not Mauser replacements. I do have an exc condition unnumbered left grip available that is cut for the mag safety, but it is much darker in color than yours. Happy New Year to all. Tom H.

P. Ristan · 01-01-2003, 04:39 PM

Hello!
I also have an all matching 1921 policeluger, but on this gun none of the grip-panels are numbered.

don95sml · 01-01-2003, 07:53 PM

[quote]Originally posted by MauserLugers:
<strong>You did not mention if the one grip was numbered 87 or was blank. The mis-matched grip has obviously been replaced at some time, as when this Luger was originally manufactured both grips were either blank or both were numbered 87.</strong><hr></blockquote>

You are correct - I forgot to mention that the left grip panel is stamped 87, as opposed to the incorrect 71 stamp on the right panel.

don95sml · 01-08-2003, 04:13 PM

I would like to thank all those who responded to my post. It is gratifying to know that this group attempts to help not only the serious collectors, but also people like me that have merely stuck their toe in the water. The concensus seems to be that this Luger was newly manufactured in 1921 for a military or police unit (although no one seemed to know exactly what "W.I.R." stands for). Later it was apparently reworked and reissued to a police unit in the Berlin district. Two of the proofmarks have been identified as older "dove" acceptance stamps. Nobody commented on the third proof, which definitely is an eagle. A friend of mine has promised to see if this mark is included in Sam Costanzo's "World of Lugers - Proofmarks", but I would welcome any info you folks might have. Thank you also for your comments regarding value - I now feel that what I have is probably worth what I paid, all things considered.

12-31-2002, 02:52 PM	#1
don95sml User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Near Roanoke, VA Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	My 1921 Police Luger Please join me in examining my first Luger purchase! If the description is overly long, it's because I hope to generate comments that will help me understand in more detail what seems to be a pistol with an interesting history. If I didn't goof, you should see photos at the end of this post. The toggle has DWM logo and is squared and knurled type. Receiver is stamped 1921 on top and 6187 on left side. Frame has stock lug, no grip safety. 4" barrel in 9 mm, underside stamped 6187 and w8,84. Front of frame stamped 6187 over letter suffix "a". Front grip strap of frame originally stamped W.I.R.158 (indicating police issue?). Number was later X'd out and changed to S.B.5308 (indicating rework and/or reissue?). Thumb safety shows GESICHERT when in rear position. Sights are fixed V notch rear, dovetail front. Wood base magazine, no markings. Checkered walnut grips with no borders. Upper left corner of left grip panel has semicircular cutout. I believe this, along with hole in frame under sideplate, indicates a magazine safety once existed but was removed. Has sear safety (added during 1930s?). Firing pin is newer (1930s) fluted design. All the proper small metal parts (including firing pin) stamped 87. Breechblock, stamped 87, is also stamped 13 just to right of firing pin spring retainer. (May relate to rework or replacement of firing pin?) Now for the proof marks. Right side of receiver stamped with 3 proofs. The 2 leftmost (identical) show an eagle over letters WaAx, where the last character is unrecognizable (not an "x", but possibly a "4"). The eagle looks like a simplified version of website proof 28 or 39. It consists only of 3 curved entities representing the 2 wings plus a head/body. The outline of the central entity is open slightly at top of eagle's head. A smaller version of same proof also stamped on left side of breechblock. The third (rightmost) proof stamped on receiver is a different eagle design not shown on website. It consists of a perfectly circular body plus fairly detailed head, wings, legs, and tail. There are characters under this eagle which are unreadable. A much smaller version of same proof also stamped on top rear of barrel. Finish was purported by seller to be original. Bluing looks to me like 80% or better. Strawing is all but gone. Evidence of light rust on top of receiver which may have been buffed off. Bore is excellent to minty. Pistol has been shot extensively, judging from wear marks on receiver. I was happy with this pistol when received, and the $975 price was acceptable at the time. I disassembled it the day I got it, but didn't get around to a really thorough inspection until about 2 weeks later. Then, when I removed the right grip panel (the very last part inspected), I was dismayed to find that it was stamped 71, not 87. Color appears identical, but checkering is somewhat sharper than on left panel. The seller did not claim all-matching parts, but neither did he inform me of the mismatch. Although I wanted a pistol I could shoot occasionally, this one now seems to be very expensive for a shooter. Your honest comments on value would be appreciated, but be forewarned that the seller is a reputable dealer known to at least some of you experts. Perhaps there are some redeeming qualities you can point to that would make me feel better about the price? Hopefully, the proofs and other markings will enable you to enlighten me further about the history of this pistol.

12-31-2002, 03:00 PM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,974 Thanks: 2,072 Thanked 4,609 Times in 2,123 Posts	Well, if all other items are matching... To me, a grip isn't like having a breechblock non-matching. There was a long thread on this issue months ago. I will re-read your post again closer (trying to learn about Police Lugers and centering on these buggers) and match it against what little I know! Meanwhile, others might chime in. Looked over everything and can chime in myself a bit: Good pictures BTW, Quote from Weimer Lugers by Still: the German Army and Police acceptance Stamp of WaAx4 is a Dove, a precurser to the eagle acceptance stamp and according to Still, "Mostly found on newly manufactured 1920 & 1921 dated 20 DWM Lugers and 1920, 1921, 1920/1920 and 1920/1921 stamped alphabet DWM Lugers." You should also have some police acceptance stamps on it? The serial number range is consistant with an alphabet DWM 1921 army or police. The grip strap markings are unit or more probably Prussian State Police grip strap markings. A capital S would indicate Schutzpolizei (municipal police force), the B might be Berlin as the Admiinstrtive disctrict? These are guesses from looking at the book. Others? __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

12-31-2002, 10:36 PM	#4
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,051 Thanks: 1,121 Thanked 5,287 Times in 1,728 Posts	don95sml Have to go along with policeluger. Your purchase is definately elevated above shooter status. It actually is quite a nice piece. Your purchase price may seem a bit steep now, "top dollar" as pointed out, but it is by no means outrageous and you may be hard pressed to find another such interesting Luger in that condition at that price. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

01-01-2003, 11:11 AM	#6
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 737 Times in 484 Posts	don95, Your 1921 Police luger appears to be an excellent example of this type. Your matching firing pin my very well have had the relief grooves cut into it when the sear safety was added. I've seen a lot of these modified FPs, that are not Mauser replacements. I do have an exc condition unnumbered left grip available that is cut for the mag safety, but it is much darker in color than yours. Happy New Year to all. Tom H. __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

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12-31-2002, 06:58 PM	#3
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	don95sml, Will try and help if I can. "W.I.R." is most likly a WW1 military unit, and I can not find a reference too it. "S.B. 5380." is "Schutzpolizei Berlin" according too Jan Still, pg 196 of Weimar Lugers, and 5380 is gun number, not the number of Lugers in that distrct but weapon number. I would not let the non matching grip panel get too me. It happens often on repair/rework and yours is a police rework of a WW1 gun. With a non matching mag $975 may be a bit high. But when you factor in the cost of searching out gun shows and shops too find what your looking for, well if you are happy that is what counts. It was by no means overpriced, perhaps just top dollar.

01-01-2003, 12:14 AM	#5
MauserLugers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Philipsburg, Montana 59858 Posts: 250 Thanks: 0 Thanked 8 Times in 1 Post	Hi, I have a somewhat different opinion of what your Luger is. The dated 1921 DWM in the NS, A, or B blocks were of new manufacture in my opinion. The WaA4 was only used on these new models made in 1921. The W.I.R. 158 was either an Weimar military marking or a Weimar Police marking that was at some time re-assigned to the Berlin district. I'm trying to remember what my 1921 Lugers have on them and I believe that the grips are usually blank, but numbered would also be correct. You did not mention if the one grip was numbered 87 or was blank. The mis-matched grip has obviously been replaced at some time, as when this Luger was originally manufactured both grips were either blank or both were numbered 87. You have to remember that these Lugers were reworked during the Nazi era and a mis-matched grip could be a legit grip as fitted when the magazine safety was clipped or removed, or the sear safety put on. Naturally we would all like them either both blank or both matching, but being reworked with the police requirements does leave the possibility of it being totally correct with the 71 numbered grip. This is only my opinion and I'm sure others with disagree.

01-01-2003, 04:39 PM	#7
P. Ristan User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Norway Posts: 50 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hello! I also have an all matching 1921 policeluger, but on this gun none of the grip-panels are numbered.

01-01-2003, 07:53 PM	#8
don95sml User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Near Roanoke, VA Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	[quote]Originally posted by MauserLugers: <strong>You did not mention if the one grip was numbered 87 or was blank. The mis-matched grip has obviously been replaced at some time, as when this Luger was originally manufactured both grips were either blank or both were numbered 87.</strong><hr></blockquote> You are correct - I forgot to mention that the left grip panel is stamped 87, as opposed to the incorrect 71 stamp on the right panel.

01-08-2003, 04:13 PM	#9
don95sml User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Near Roanoke, VA Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I would like to thank all those who responded to my post. It is gratifying to know that this group attempts to help not only the serious collectors, but also people like me that have merely stuck their toe in the water. The concensus seems to be that this Luger was newly manufactured in 1921 for a military or police unit (although no one seemed to know exactly what "W.I.R." stands for). Later it was apparently reworked and reissued to a police unit in the Berlin district. Two of the proofmarks have been identified as older "dove" acceptance stamps. Nobody commented on the third proof, which definitely is an eagle. A friend of mine has promised to see if this mark is included in Sam Costanzo's "World of Lugers - Proofmarks", but I would welcome any info you folks might have. Thank you also for your comments regarding value - I now feel that what I have is probably worth what I paid, all things considered.