Capture papers?? Whats that?

karmast · 03-12-2003, 07:18 PM

I read in a topic about "capture papers" which allowed an American soldier to bring a captured luger into the USA after WW2.
What does that mean? I tought every GI was allowed to bring back the guns he became during the fight?

Edward Tinker · 03-12-2003, 08:59 PM

No, many GI's sent them home via the mail system, but this was actually illegal. From what I understand, only one gun per GI was allowed legally and that was bvefore they shipped home. So "capture" or also known as "bring back papers" were issued to a GI that requested one. Many I have seen are actually after the war ended and then the guy could carry something that wouldn't burden him. If a GI picked something up, it had to be carried. I havce heard that guys that put stuff in their barracks bag or duffle bag, they would pick them up and they had been cut open or items stolen from them, same with a GI that was wounded, the guns were taken away from them.

Ed

Navy · 03-12-2003, 09:01 PM

The so called "Capture papers", were actually a declaration that a piece of Axis war materiel was permitted to be brought back into the US of A with out any claim on it by the US government (primarily the Intelligence services).
The form, AG USFET 33 (US Forces European Theater) "Officially authorized by the Theater Commander (That would be Ike), the bearer to retain as his personal property the articles (Of formerly enemy property) listed on the form.

Typically, the form was signed by an officer, but I have come across forms signed by NCOs.

In 1944, the Army recognized a warrior's right to the trophy of his adversary's weapons. It is a shame it no longer has the same sense of what being a warrior is about.

Tom A.

trigger643 · 03-12-2003, 11:21 PM

I have several sets of capture papers, though none for a luger. In the early part of the war it wasn't uncommon to send home via mail, without papers such things as an MP-40 and even a complete MG-42 with tri-pod was shipped to Logan Utah in late 1943 from North Africa. I have a German medical first aid box that was addressed on the box in pencil to an address in Texas that contained a P-38 without papers. The "duffle bag cut" is well known among K98 collectors and usually occurred at the mid-band point. In 1944-5, GIs were pretty much required to declare their weapons and obtain papers to transport them home. However, many handguns were snuck through without papers. 2 Lugers that belonged to my Uncle who was in a tank recovery unit with the third army never had papers (neither did his MP-40 nor the mg-42 -- but the latter guns were amnestied in 1968). If anyone is interested in seeing an example, I will be glad to post one.

Heydrich · 03-12-2003, 11:40 PM

When I went to my uncle's place to shot my DWM Luger, he told me an interesting story about vets bringing back guns from WW2 Europe. Apparently, this practice was frowned upon after the war. He said the authorities on the ship he was on made an announcement that they were all going to be searched the next day for captured guns, and if they found any, that person would spend the next 10 years in Leavenworth. During the night, dozens of GI's went up on deck and chucked tons of K98s, Lugers and other German small arms into the ocean. They never did search them the next day.

karmast · 03-13-2003, 04:31 AM

This is really interesting, thank you all for your fast replies!!
@trigger643: it would be fine if you could post an example of these capture papers, I have never seen one before, only heard about them..
@Heydrich: what a shame!!! I don't want to know how many collector-grade lugers lying on the ground of the ocean!

Pelorat · 03-13-2003, 07:48 AM

"I don't want to know how many collector-grade lugers lying on the ground of the ocean!"

I can reassure you that there are no collector-grade lugers lying on the bottom of the ocean. They might have been such when they were chucked into it, but no longer =)

karmast · 03-13-2003, 09:13 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Pelorat:
"I don't want to know how many collector-grade lugers lying on the ground of the ocean!"

I can reassure you that there are no collector-grade lugers lying on the bottom of the ocean. They might have been such when they were chucked into it, but no longer =)<hr /></blockquote>You are rigtht.. =(

On the other hand side: I saw pictures of lugers they brought up from the Toplitzsee, a lake in Austria, which were in waterproofed boxes: like new!

Vlim · 03-13-2003, 11:43 AM

Hi,

There is a small museum in the neighbourhood of Ypres in Belgium. This area was smack-bang in the middle of the WWI trench wars and was bombed to bits. One small part of the original trenches was restored and a small museum was added to it. It houses a collection of trenchfinds, where rusted artillerylugers hang side by side with british service revolvers and all sorts of decaying military hardware. An impressive sight.

karmast · 03-13-2003, 12:59 PM

I should visit this the next time when I am in this part! Thank you for your tip!

John Sabato · 03-13-2003, 01:58 PM

For those members who have never seen capture papers this photo shows some examples of what they look like. The upper photo is almost clear enough to read... I put text where the form would be filled in for those that are worried about forged papers... and the lower photo shows a real life example of a capture paper for a P-38 pistol...

I have seen typewritten letters written by commanders that contain much the same information, but the unit was obviously out of the forms when the GI requested one...

karmast · 03-13-2003, 05:35 PM

Ah, thats how it looks like! Thank you, Mr Sabato!

03-12-2003, 07:18 PM	#1
karmast User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Germany Posts: 57 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Capture papers?? Whats that? I read in a topic about "capture papers" which allowed an American soldier to bring a captured luger into the USA after WW2. What does that mean? I tought every GI was allowed to bring back the guns he became during the fight? __________________ Every Luger tells a story - but you have to find out what it says..

03-12-2003, 08:59 PM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,974 Thanks: 2,072 Thanked 4,607 Times in 2,123 Posts	No, many GI's sent them home via the mail system, but this was actually illegal. From what I understand, only one gun per GI was allowed legally and that was bvefore they shipped home. So "capture" or also known as "bring back papers" were issued to a GI that requested one. Many I have seen are actually after the war ended and then the guy could carry something that wouldn't burden him. If a GI picked something up, it had to be carried. I havce heard that guys that put stuff in their barracks bag or duffle bag, they would pick them up and they had been cut open or items stolen from them, same with a GI that was wounded, the guns were taken away from them. Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

03-12-2003, 11:21 PM	#4
trigger643 User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Murfreesboro Posts: 502 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	I have several sets of capture papers, though none for a luger. In the early part of the war it wasn't uncommon to send home via mail, without papers such things as an MP-40 and even a complete MG-42 with tri-pod was shipped to Logan Utah in late 1943 from North Africa. I have a German medical first aid box that was addressed on the box in pencil to an address in Texas that contained a P-38 without papers. The "duffle bag cut" is well known among K98 collectors and usually occurred at the mid-band point. In 1944-5, GIs were pretty much required to declare their weapons and obtain papers to transport them home. However, many handguns were snuck through without papers. 2 Lugers that belonged to my Uncle who was in a tank recovery unit with the third army never had papers (neither did his MP-40 nor the mg-42 -- but the latter guns were amnestied in 1968). If anyone is interested in seeing an example, I will be glad to post one. __________________ "There are three reasons to own a gun: To protect yourself and your family, to hunt dangerous and delicious animals, and to keep the King of England out of your face." Ã¢?? Krusty the Clown

03-13-2003, 04:31 AM	#6
karmast User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Germany Posts: 57 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	This is really interesting, thank you all for your fast replies!! @trigger643: it would be fine if you could post an example of these capture papers, I have never seen one before, only heard about them.. @Heydrich: what a shame!!! I don't want to know how many collector-grade lugers lying on the ground of the ocean! __________________ Every Luger tells a story - but you have to find out what it says..

03-13-2003, 09:13 AM	#8
karmast User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Germany Posts: 57 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Pelorat: <strong>"I don't want to know how many collector-grade lugers lying on the ground of the ocean!" I can reassure you that there are no collector-grade lugers lying on the bottom of the ocean. They might have been such when they were chucked into it, but no longer =)</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">You are rigtht.. =( On the other hand side: I saw pictures of lugers they brought up from the Toplitzsee, a lake in Austria, which were in waterproofed boxes: like new! __________________ Every Luger tells a story - but you have to find out what it says..

03-12-2003, 09:01 PM	#3
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	The so called "Capture papers", were actually a declaration that a piece of Axis war materiel was permitted to be brought back into the US of A with out any claim on it by the US government (primarily the Intelligence services). The form, AG USFET 33 (US Forces European Theater) "Officially authorized by the Theater Commander (That would be Ike), the bearer to retain as his personal property the articles (Of formerly enemy property) listed on the form. Typically, the form was signed by an officer, but I have come across forms signed by NCOs. In 1944, the Army recognized a warrior's right to the trophy of his adversary's weapons. It is a shame it no longer has the same sense of what being a warrior is about. Tom A.

03-12-2003, 11:40 PM	#5
Heydrich Banned Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Oregon Posts: 181 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	When I went to my uncle's place to shot my DWM Luger, he told me an interesting story about vets bringing back guns from WW2 Europe. Apparently, this practice was frowned upon after the war. He said the authorities on the ship he was on made an announcement that they were all going to be searched the next day for captured guns, and if they found any, that person would spend the next 10 years in Leavenworth. During the night, dozens of GI's went up on deck and chucked tons of K98s, Lugers and other German small arms into the ocean. They never did search them the next day.

03-13-2003, 07:48 AM	#7
Pelorat User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: North Charleston, SC Posts: 31 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	"I don't want to know how many collector-grade lugers lying on the ground of the ocean!" I can reassure you that there are no collector-grade lugers lying on the bottom of the ocean. They might have been such when they were chucked into it, but no longer =)

03-13-2003, 11:43 AM	#9
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,991 Times in 1,205 Posts	Hi, There is a small museum in the neighbourhood of Ypres in Belgium. This area was smack-bang in the middle of the WWI trench wars and was bombed to bits. One small part of the original trenches was restored and a small museum was added to it. It houses a collection of trenchfinds, where rusted artillerylugers hang side by side with british service revolvers and all sorts of decaying military hardware. An impressive sight.

03-13-2003, 12:59 PM	#10
karmast User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Germany Posts: 57 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I should visit this the next time when I am in this part! Thank you for your tip! __________________ Every Luger tells a story - but you have to find out what it says..

03-13-2003, 01:58 PM	#11
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,309 Times in 1,098 Posts	For those members who have never seen capture papers this photo shows some examples of what they look like. The upper photo is almost clear enough to read... I put text where the form would be filled in for those that are worried about forged papers... and the lower photo shows a real life example of a capture paper for a P-38 pistol... I have seen typewritten letters written by commanders that contain much the same information, but the unit was obviously out of the forms when the GI requested one... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

03-13-2003, 05:35 PM	#12
karmast User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Germany Posts: 57 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Ah, thats how it looks like! Thank you, Mr Sabato! __________________ Every Luger tells a story - but you have to find out what it says..

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