Jammed Shell

[meadowlark]

Today I took my P08 to the gun range to try it for the second time to see if it repeats the jam problem I had on my first visit. (stovepipe).
This time I only got off three rounds before it jammed. I'm showing an example of the stovepipe jam that happened on my first visit. I don't have a picture of the second jam but it happened as the next round chambered and was more pronounced than what is showing in this photo. The shell was leaning more to the left (~50 degrees) and really jammed.
Anybody have any idea why this is happening?

[DonVoigt]

Ejector arm may be broken or the ammo is weak; plus a half dozen other things.
But look at these first.

[Doubs]

A couple of ideas come to mind.

Weak ammo or too little recoil resistance (i.e., limp wristing).

If it's a bad or broken extractor hook, that's easily checked.

[meadowlark]

Hi Don and Doubs,
Thanks to both of you. The ammo I used in both visits was Remington's 115 gr. I heard others complain about Remington ammo but never explain what was wrong with it.
I'll double check the extractor and let you know what I find.
Thanks again!

[DonVoigt]

What's wrong with Remington ammo?
It doesn't work well in my lugers! Failures to feed and eject.
Try several brands of 115 or 124 gr ammo.

Check the Ejector blade that fits through the slot into the bolt, it may be chipped, missing, or short.

It is pretty clear the extractor works, it is holding the shell pretty well in the picture!

At this point, with knowing it is Remington ammo, I'm going to blame the ammo.

[meadowlark]

Don and Doubs,
Don -I believe you are right regarding the Remington ammo but I still wonder why, if that is the case, what's wrong with their ammo. I also checked the Ejector and can't find anything broken or excessively worn (see pic). However, I don't know what a perfect Ejector would look like. Doubs - The recoil on this P08 is strong so I don't think that's the problem.
Again, I really appreciate your inputs.

[rhuff]

None of my Lugers will function correctly with Remington ammo.....it is under powdered and the recoil impulse is incorrect for MY Luger springs. It is jam-a-matic ammo. As has been said many times before, some Lugers are quite ammo sensitive, and one needs to find the brand and bullet weight that YOUR Luger is compatible with.....then all of the World will smile!!

[meadowlark]

Thanks rhuff! What ammo brand would you suggest I use?

[rhuff]

Originally Posted by meadowlark

Thanks rhuff! What ammo brand would you suggest I use?

I fear that you might just have to try a "few" to find a load that is compatible with your Luger, and the recoil impulse that matches the springs currently inside your Luger.

Many here have had good luck with 115/124gr FMJ Winchester white box, I have found that MY Lugers are happy with PMC 115gr FMJ, and my handloads with 115gr FMJ bullet and a full load of Unique powder. Others here swear by Magtec 115/124gr FMJ......I think you see the trend here.


It could be something other than the ammo, but the FIRST thing that I would change is that Remington ammo out for something else.....it just may solve your problem.

[Doubs]

Your extractor looks to be perfect.

By "limp wristing", I mean that the shooter "gives" a little which doesn't allow the action to fully use the force of the recoil. I have a 1927 Argentine .45ACP - a clone of the 1911A1 - and the only time it has EVER jammed on me was once when I shot weak hand and limp wristed it. Lesson learned.

Below is a picture of a Luger receiver with the ejector circled. The ejector rides in a slot on the right side of the breech block and actually makes contact with the breech block due to the tension of the spring. You can actually see the ejector flex as the breech block goes forward into battery. Your ejector should look like the one in the picture below.

Many 9mm Lugers will leave a very distinctive mark on the mouth of a fired case that looks like a small triangle. No other gun will leave a mark like it.

[DonVoigt]

Why do you need to know "why"?
Isn't it enough that two or three guys tell you the Remington ammo is problematic in a luger?

Any answer would be just more speculation, it could be too short, or too long, or the charge too small, or the wrong powder type- it really is irrelevant! JMHO

I have had success with S&B, Blazer brass, Olympic(Greek), Winchester white box, Magtech, Fiocchi, some reloads, and Wolf steel case -
most anything EXCEPT Remington.

[meadowlark]

I see your point. I was once an engineer where I couldn't just accept something was wrong without knowing the reason why. Details, details, details. Your answer is more appropriate to this situation.
Thanks again.

[DonVoigt]

Meadowlark,
I frequently want to know why too; if I "really" want to know, I'll design an experiment or three hundred and find out.

I "used to be" a chemist.

[mrerick]

Most likely, there is nothing "wrong" with the Remington ammunition. It likely meets all SAAMI safety standards and specifications.

Understand that the Luger action is a very finely balanced mechanism. As the first widely adopted semi-automatic pistol, it was engineered without the modern instrumented tools and simulation that we have available today.

As an engineer, you understand that without factual measurements, the gunsmiths that designed the Luger mechanism and refined it (no doubt lead by Luger, who was not himself a machinist) were working blind and through simple experiments.

(Luger, BTW, was renown for stealing inventions from others - there is original documentation about his behavior when stealing Mauser's 3 lug rifle bolt action model from Oberndorf and patenting it in Berlin in his own name)...

I have not done the experiments with Remington ammunition myself, but would consider several possible causes for what you are experiencing.

• Inadequate support of the pistol which softens and reduces it's ability to cycle driven by the recoil impulse
  Unbalanced action because of selection of recoil spring, friction, fit, lubrication or wear considerations
  The powder selection and load in Remington creates a recoil impulse that drives your Luger's action too fast or too slow. This can be related to the relative burning speed of the powder, the load and mass interaction driving the bullet out of the case and down the barrel

You can chase things like this for months as part of an analysis approach to shooting your Luger. - or - You can try other ammunition varying brand, bullet weight and shape.

Someone with experience working on Luger mechanisms may be able to look at your Luger (in hand - not in photos) and determine possible failure mechanisms. The sequence is, of course:

• Problem Source Identification
  Problem Determination

[Sieger]

mrerick,

"(Luger, BTW, was renown for stealing inventions from others - there is original documentation about his behavior when stealing Mauser's 3 lug rifle bolt action model from Oberndorf and patenting it in Berlin in his own name)..."

Please provide a copy of or quote from the original documentation as mentioned above.

Thanks!


Sieger

[mrerick]

Originally Posted by Sieger

mrerick,

"(Luger, BTW, was renown for stealing inventions from others - there is original documentation about his behavior when stealing Mauser's 3 lug rifle bolt action model from Oberndorf and patenting it in Berlin in his own name)..."

Please provide a copy of or quote from the original documentation as mentioned above.

Thanks!


Sieger

Hi, the documents that confirm this are in the book Gerben and Mauro published recently, and that I edited.

The original documents from the legal cases are part of the archive. It took decades to finally adjudicate the case.

http://www.paul-mauser-archive.com/b...nformation.htm

The story starts in 1891 when Ludwig Loewe (Via Oliven Kosgarten) introduces Luger to Mauser after hiring Luger away from Mannlicher. The Mauser book discusses this starting on page 109.

Luger traveled to Oberndorf where he spent time observing activities in the Mauser research and development office. Luger eventually returned to Loewe in Berlin.

A batch of experimental rifles were sent by Mauser to Berlin in 1894 for evaluation by US Representatives, and they had a modification which included the 3 lug bolt (after an 1880 design that Fidel Feederle remembered working with at Mauser).

Luger subsequently observed the rifles in Berlin and applied for and received a Utility Patent on the 3 lug bolt. This was the subject of an observed argument between Luger and Feederle. Gebrauchsmuster 40,134.

Luger subsequently sued Mauser for royalties on Mauser's original idea, and the lawsuits continued for years, including 1896 testimony by Feederle in court.

Mauser lost that lawsuit on a technicality relating to the 1891 patent law in Germany. This involved the US representatives removing the sample rifles with the design from Germany to the USA. The M1903 US Rifle was subsequently based on these designs, an infringement that Mauser sued the US government over. The 1896 case was the first time Mauser claimed that Luger had observed the design and patented it in his own name. This was claimed in court, but could not be proven in spite of Feederle's testimony.

German patent 82394 was issued to Luger in 1894 for the bolt design.

Loewe eventually stepped in to settle the dispute in 1899, and royalties continued to be paid by Mauser to Luger (a receipt from 1902 remains in the archive).

Loewe eventually fired Luger from DWM in 1919 over other patent related litigation.

Many years later, Mauser (the company, as Mauser himself died in 1914) eventually collected his royalties for the design from the US Government.

I don't have the rights to reproduce the book or the documents from the archive, so cannot post them.

Marc

[Lugerdoc]

As I recall from past postings on this subject, the 115gr Remington ball ammo had a case length problem. TH

[Doubs]

WRT powder "impulse", I've found that Unique works well in the Luger but does not meter well as it's a flake powder.

Hodgdon CFE Pistol powder meters well and seems to have a burn rate/impulse about the same as Unique. It works nicely in my Lugers.

Of course this is only important if you reload.

[meadowlark]

Doc - I think I'll just try different ammo and see which one works best for now

mrerick - Thanks for your input. Good information as I go forward in eliminating this jamming problem.

Lugerdoc - Interesting possibility.

Doubs, - I don't reload shells. But if I ever get into doing so, I'll refer back to your post's information.

[Vlim]

Remington is crap. Inconsistent loads, pressures even in the same batch.

They found similar issues with Remington 30-06 hunting ammo.

Mauser had it tested while producing the Parabellum and found many issues with Remington. In the end they switched to other brands as Remington was simply not consistent enough.

Differently put: their quality control is done by shaved monkeys on crack. A luger and Remington ammo have no purpose together.