A Vickers, and a question of propriety

[Dwight Gruber]

The Dutch were among the earliest adopters of the Luger; in fact, the salient feature of the "new model" Luger, the coiled recoil spring, was instituted at their behest. Designated "Pistool M 11", these 1906-model Lugers, with "Rust" (Dutch for "safe") stamped above the thumb safety lever and "Geladen" stamped on -both- sides of the extractor, were procured in small lots totalling 4,000 weapons from 1911 until the First World War. These guns were sent for use by the Royal Netherlands [east] Indies Army (K.N.I.L).

In 1919 the Dutch government ordered an additional 6,000 M 11s. Due to the conditions of the Treaty of Versailles, DWM was unable to manufacture and export pistols to fulfill this contract. A long-standing, complex connection existed between DWM and the British arms manufacturer Vickers, Ltd., and so to circumvent the Treaty the order was essentially "subcontracted" to Vickers. Unfinished parts manufactured by DWM to assemble these guns were sent to to Vickers, where they were finished and assembled. It took Vickers two years to accomplish the work, and even then they were sent without grips plates; grips were manufactured at the Geweermakersschool (GS) in Batavia, Indonesia.

6,000 Vickers Lugers were manufactured, serial number range from 4182 to 10181 inclusive. Many sources, including two large price guide catalogs, list Vickers production at 10,000 pistols, beginning with serial# 1. This is an error, and apparently includes the pre-war DWM-manufactured pistols.

Vickers Lugers are marked with British proofs under the barrel and on the toggle links, and the Crown-over-W Wilhelmina Dutch acceptance mark on the left side of the receiver. The front toggle is stamped Vickers Ltd. Many of the pistols bear a brass panel soldered to the side plate (sometimes the plates are on the front of the trigger guard), stamped with Dutch unit marks; those which do not were officer issue. The grips are characteristically made of native wood, coarse-checkered, and stamped inside with the gun's serial number. Tropical service was hard on these Lugers, and they were re-worked by the GS many times--parts were replaced, guns were re-barrelled (with a small date-stamp on the top of the barrel), guns were refinished. Few pristine examples are to be found.

(Information for the foregoing comes mostly from "The Dutch Luger", Bas J. Martens & Guus de Vries, Ironside International Publishers Inc., �©1994)

Pictured here is Vickers Luger serial# 7927. It is a mismatched piece, the toggle train is stamped 86. There is no brass plate on the side panel, and no evidence of anything ever having been soldered there, indicating this gun was issued to an officer. The "Rust" safety mark with its arrow is plainly visible. The left grip is native wood, coarsely checkered, quite crudely manufactured.



The right side. The right grip is very different from the left. The checkering is very shallow, the diamonds large and flat, and the plate itself is quite thin and flat in profile. There are no markings on the inside. I wondered about this grip, as it appears very new. However, I recently picked up a set of Dutch grips, very much older-appearing and used, in the same style. They appear to be a much later design. In the 1930s Dutch contract pistols of the P-08 design were delivered by Mauser, and the grips in question appear to have been made for these pistols, having no cut-away for a grip safety.



Top view, showing the Vickers stamp on the toggle, and the Crown-over-V English stamps on the toggle pieces and breechblock.



In the bottom view it can be seen that the barrel is original--an unusual circumastance, particularly considering the poor condition of the bore. The markings are: the NP British Nitro-proof; the Crown-over-intertwined GP, the London proof-house mark; and the Crown/V. The cryptic mark under the serial# is unidentified. "The Dutch Luger" pictures two guns in this view, one has this mark and the other has a different mark, equally cryptic. The authors do not explain the mark, and Costanzo does not include it.

This gun has been refinished at least once. As can be seen in the inset, the receiver proof has been ground away. This causes me some concern about the origin of the receiver, as the witness marks seem excessively misaligned. On the other hand, the numbers stamped on the receiver lug are the proper font, and it would make little sense for an armory to replace only the receiver, retaining such a worn-out barrel.



The left grip is serial# stamped 9843, within the Vickers serial number range. It does not bear a GS mark. In fact, the only GS mark on the gun is the right end of the rear toggle pin. Although the K.N.I.L. originally bought spare and repair parts from DWM, eventually the GS armory was able to manufacture all but the most complex or specialized parts on their own.

Vickers were serial-number stamped in the commercial style, and the matching side plate is so marked on its bottom edge. The inside of the side plate is stamped 22, in the distinctive GS number font, for unknown reason.



And now comes the question of propriety. As pictured, this is not the configuration the gun was in when I bought it. It had a toggle train which was clearly Dutch--Geladen on both sides of the extractor, proper markings which I will describe--and matching serial number, but of DWM manufacture and mark.

Because most parts of a Luger are only stamped with the last two digits of the serial number, it is relatively easy to have multiple parts with the same numbers--a circumstance on which gun boosters depend. The GS armory apparently felt that possible misassembly because of this was a problem, and so in circumstances where Lugers with identical final digits were issued to the same unit they added the second digit of the serial number to the parts--thus making parts with three-digit numbers.

As can be seen in the picture below, the armory apparently force-matched a surplus DWM toggle to the gun, and then stamped the additional digit. You can see that the number style of the 2 is different from the DWM number 2 on the toggle tail; the number was also added--badly--under the front toggle, and appears to be the same style as the numbers stamped inside the side plate.



Thus the question: which is the proper toggle train for this Luger? Of course, even allowing for the Dutch armory propensity to keep guns in the field by scavenging spares and reissuing, to a collector this gun will never be any more than a mismatched Vickers. But I am curious to know the opinions--I have my own--as to whether this Luger is more appropriate--more proper--(recognizing that these are not necessarily the same things) with the Vickers or the DWM toggle pieces?

--Dwight

[Stu]

Great question Dwight. I've no answer but look forward to a lively debate ! Where did you obtain the Vickers toggle ?

[Vlim]

Hi,

The KNIL was not very well funded (to say the least) and most lugers actually weren't used for shooting that much, because the 9mm was on ration

After the Dutch got run over in Indonesia by the japanese in 1942, the Japanese must also have gained control over the arsenals (and probably ransacked a few for 'souvenirs'). In 1944 the British occupied most of the Indonesian islands and only reallowed the Dutch back in in late 1944. The KNIL found itself understaffed, underequipped and virtually not funded and scavenged everything they could find to rearm a number of newly formed divisions.

My theory is that because of scarce 9mm ammo, the lugers were issued to staff, medics and officers (because they wouldn't do much shooting anyway) and the more useful (US/anglo) guns for which there was a decent supply of ammo went to the people who actually had to do some shooting. This would explain why so many dutch lugers that are found nowadays seem to be a jumble of parts (whereby all the parts are actually 'dutch' by nature).

The fact that these guns survived is easily explained by the fact that the KNIL was officially dissolved in 1950 and that surviving weapons were sold off during the following years, since the regular Dutch army had adopted different weapons and most surviving guns were write-offs anyway.

My opinion is that the luger is better of with the DWM toggle, which at least makes it 'time original' (it's latest use being in the 1945 - 1950 timeframe).

My own M1911 consists of parts from gun# 2850 (frame + grips), gun# 11910 (barrel/receiver) and a gun which ended with 11 (the entire toggle bit). Add to that a 55-numbered toggle pin and an unnumbered 'browned' sideplate.

[Dwight Gruber]

Stu,

I got the toggle train on a "Vickers" which I picked up with more enthusiasm than knowledge, turned out to be a KOL frame and unidentifiable barrel/receiver. I learned a lot about Dutch Lugers on account of it.

Gerben,

Thanks very much for the information, a fascinating addition to the Dutch Luger story. I appreciate your opinion that the DWM toggle train is more appropriate to this Luger (the more I look at it the more I think the toggle has been completely renumbered).

I have about come to the happy conclusion that in this case I can eat my cake and have it too, mount the Vickers toggle as a complete (though mismatched) Vickers, and keep the DWM toggle with it to represent its authentic history.

Kind of makes an orphan of the KOL frame, though...

--Dwight

[Vlim]

Dwight,

That would 'almost' tempt me to turn my M11 into a complete 'KOL;... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

But that would leave a nice 1913 Brass labeled DWM frame with matching grips orphaned

Ah, the dilemmas we face in life

[MauserLugers]

Hi,
I have a Vickers that hasn't been reworked with the serial number 709. It has the brass plate on the side panel. -- Bill

[Dwight Gruber]

Bill,

How do you get a Vickers with a serial# below 4182??

--Dwight

[MauserLugers]

Hello Dwight,
I'm a Mauser collector so I guess I don't know what I have. I have no references on these so went and looked it over closely and it has been reworked. Perhaps you can tell me what I have. Serial number is 709. It is all matching except the grips are not numbered. The barrel is numbered 709 with what appears to be a Crown v above 709. No other marking on the barrel. A small 7 has been added in front of the 09 on the breech and also on the rear of the receiver. Vickers LTD toggle with Crown V's in 3 places. The receiver lug is marked 09. The sideplate is marked in the commercial style 09 with only a G or C on the inside. The brass plate is marked 2-A.D. above 24. On the right side of the frame between the trigger and takedown lever is a C/16. Rust marked, geladen on both sides. Has the large Crown over W mark on the left side of the receiver. Rear connecting pin is blank. Please tell me what I have? Thanks in advance -- Bill

[Edward Tinker]

Hello Bill,

From the Dutch Luger, the M11 was the designation. DWM delivered exactly 4,181 prior to WW1. First 1,391 were delivered in 1912, so I would say the frame was from then. **re-wrote what I had said below**

The British used a proofing Crown V, so it could very well that your toggle would be much as Dwight's and was force matched later from parts. From what I understand, this seems very common compared to most Lugers. Further, being in the tropics, guns were refinished on an average of every 6 - 7 years, so a re-work is almost expected with these guns.

Let me take a stab at the Unit Markings.

2-A.D. above 24 â?? 2nd Infantry Battalion, Section 7 L/28 Anti-Aircraft Mounted Artillery weapon # 24.

I could not find anything that spoke of the C/16. Rust marked is correct, as is geladen on both sides.

The large Crown over W mark on the left side of the receiver is correct and is for the present Queen Wilhelmina.

Ed

[Dwight Gruber]

Bill,

I think Ed has it pretty much covered, but I have a couple of questions for you.

The Crown/V is a British mark. I'm not sure that it is a proof mark, Martens & de Vries imply that it is not. I find it curious that it is on the barrel with that serial number and no actual British firing proofs. Does it look like the barrel has had the other marks removed--including perhaps the original the serial#--in order to renumber the gun? Does it look like a rebarrel? What is the configuration of the witness mark? Got any photographs??

The general force-matching and rework condition sound like correct GS armory practice. The blank toggle pin would be normal for a part of DWM manufacture in that year. It is beginning to appear that armory parts are stamped GS pretty haphazardly.

How about the grips, are they coarse checkered native wood replacements, are they fine-checkered DWM grips, are they coarse/shallow replacements?

--Dwight

[MauserLugers]

Thanks Ed, Dwight,
I can see no signs of any grinding or renumbering on the barrel. It does not look like anything was removed from the barrel. Witness marks are fairly close in line.

The left grip is coarse with 6610 inside and GS, while the right grip is fine and blank. I was going by memory in my other post and apparently my memory isn't all that great.

I'm having Ed try to clean up a couple of pictures that aren't very good.

So what is the C/16 ?
So what do I have and who reworked it and when? Is it a correct variation? I know the 7 (smaller) was added to the serial number on the right side of the breech and the rear toggle assembly, but the barrel serial number (709) looks all original, as does the frame serial number (709) and are of the same style.

Thanks -- Bill

[Pete Ebbink]

Dwight,

More British proof info. I received last year from "The Shadow" and others when I was chasing down the British proofs on my '41 byf "Black Widow" :





I also read in my Gerhard Wirnsberger proof mark book (on page 111) that the proof is "encircled' when the gun is not made in England and does not have the circle around the proof when the gun is made/assembled in England. The crown/V proof is from a London proof house (named the Worshipful Company) and is a "view" mark made applied after final proof (per pages 102 and 108)

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

[Pete Ebbink]

Last proof page :


Larger image, EBT
http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Proofs-2.jpg

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

[Dwight Gruber]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by MauserLugers:
[QB]So what is the C/16 ?
So what do I have and who reworked it and when? Is it a correct variation? I know the 7 (smaller) was added to the serial number on the right side of the breech and the rear toggle assembly, but the barrel serial number (709) looks all original, as does the frame serial number (709) and are of the same style.
QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Bill,

I wish there was a real expert on these guns here, what I have to say comes mostly from "The Dutch Luger" except where noted. I'm going to say "if" a lot in what follows, as these guns were reworked and parts renumbered many times during their lifetimes, and I haven't actually examined your gun.

IMO what you have is a representitive Dutch Luger with a Vickers toggle train. It was assembled from the parts at hand during its most recent re-work by the Central Small Arms Arsenal at Bandoeng, number-matched and/or re-numbered as a complete pistol, and likely served in its present configuration. It is nearly impossible to determine when this rework might have occurred.

If the frame bears its original serial number, it was part of the original DWM Dutch contract, delivered in 1912. The receiver is from a later gun, as the Crown/W was stamped on the right receiver of guns serial# 1 through 2141--could be a DWM, could be a Vickers, but not later as the KOL contract series was Crown/N stamped.

There is a strong possibility that the frame number has been changed (which would alter my assessment, above). The C-over-number marking has been noted on different parts of Vickers Lugers, its meaning is unknown. It has been speculated that the number represents the year of manufacture of the part, however the higher numbers like C/24 make this unlikely as the contract had been fulfilled long before. John Walter in "The Luger Story" speculates that these marks identify parts subcontractors; Martens and de Vries note similar marks on comparable components of P-04 and P-08 WWI vintage service pistols of DWM manufacture.

The left grip appears to be a Vickers grip, it is in the proper number range with the GS mark. The right grip is probably off a DWM contract pistol, or a DWM replacement part.

The barrel markings definitely do not match what one would expect to see on an original Vickers barrel (see the closeup in my original post). KNIL army regulations presumed barrel lifetime to be six or seven years, and Dutch Lugers were frequently rebarrelled. Iirc (I cannot track down the source to cite) it is not common to find a Vickers with an original barrel.

Your photos aren't sufficiently clear to see the detail of the marking. You note that it "appears to be" a Crown/V, does it match the Crown/V on the toggles, or could it possibly be a different mark?

I wouldn't put too much stock in the barrel number and the frame number being in the same style. My own Dutch Lugers have stamps of several different styles, some match the DWM or Vickers style and some don't. -If- your frame has been re-numbered, and -if- the barrel was numbered at or near the same time, they would likely share the same style.

I just noted, you say the gun has a serial# on the right side of the breech?? This would be unusual.

This discussion is making me crave to see good, sharp closeups of the marks under the barrel and the front of the frame.

You are making me learn all sorts of things here!

--Dwight

[Dwight Gruber]

Pete,

Thanks for the excellent info.

--Dwight

[MauserLugers]

Dwight,
Thanks.
Serial number is on the left side of the breech. I'll try to get some better pictures. -- Bill

[Edward Tinker]

Bill, I will just come over to your house and we'll take some pictures,

[Vlim]

Hi,

Could the 'crown V' be a worn 'crown N'?

Anyway, this one appears to fit the bill of a 1945 - 1950 reused piece again. I will try to check whether the regiment in question was reinstated after WWII. The brass side plates were introduced in 1939 and since this was close to the start of WWII, I would expect that most surviving brass plates actually display post-war regiment information and not pre-war info...

I don't think redoing brass plates was a high-priority activity during the war.

[Vlim]

Hi,

The brass tag appears to be from a pre-WWII company that was not reinstated after 1944.

Those that were reinstated or newly formed after 1944 are:

INF I - INF XIII (23 Infantry batalions)
BEW BAT I - V (5 guard batalions)
VEW I - IV (4 armoured car divisions)
VEW IX (or 9) (armoured car and depot division)
VD ART I - III (3 field artillery groups)
2 engineering field companies
1 engineering 'workers' company
1 supply troop company
2 military police batalions and a number of companies
several hospital groups, some depots and parachute and commando groups.

These all existed between 1944 and 1950.

(source: 'Gedenkschrift Koninklijk Nederlands Indisch leger, 1840-1950')

[Edward Tinker]

This is very interesting to read you guys!

These guns are not really very well known, in or out of der Nederlands <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> so keep up the good work.

{and Gerben, was so nice to talk to you on the phone a couple of weeks ago!)