Picked up Erfurt 1917 today

[thorin6]

This is my second Luger (long story on the first one, thankfully the seller took it back). Erfurt 1917, all numbers matching although the toggle bolt is unnumbered. Grip are matching also, magazine is period correct but unmarked--both in good shape. Finish is rough (but not reblued or refinished). I will try to post pictures, but as this is my first post I apologize if they don't show up right away.

[thorin6]

Here is close up of trigger plate and receiver SN.

[Edward Tinker]

William, you posted ok!


A luger prior to 1932/33 will not have to have the toggle pin numbered, this requirement was not required before this time.


Looks decent?

Ed

[thorin6]

[thorin6]

Barrel SN matches, witness marks line up. Unit Marking is for 139th Inf Reg, I'm assuming.

[thorin6]

Proof marks abound--here are the ones on the right side. Also one on the barrel and several other places.
Also, here is date--no 1920 property mark.

[Ron Smith]

Your Erfurt is marked to 139th Infantry Regiment Stab(staff). In other words , it wasn't issued to a company and wasn't given a weapon number.

If it had been issued it would be something like 139. R. 6. 25. , etc.

Looks like a nice one. Congratulations!

RS

[thorin6]

Ron, appreciate the information on the regimental marking. I wasn't sure if they had stopped marking the company and gun number, or if there was some other explanation. Do you know who would be issued a Luger at the Regimental staff level? I know the US issued M1911s to its couriers as well as support folks at the BN level, not sure how the Germans issued their pistols.

[Edward Tinker]

Ron, you know this far better than me, but during the weimnar era there was a short time when markings were just like this? Is it possible this is a weimar marking?

Ed

[thorin6]

Ron, appreciate the information on the regimental marking. I wasn't sure if they had stopped marking the company and gun number, or if there was some other explanation. Do you know who would be issued a Luger at the Regimental staff level? I know the US issued M1911s to its couriers as well as support folks at the BN level, not sure how the Germans issued their pistols.

[Ron Smith]

Ed, Weimar Reichswehr markings are reversed. Company number first and usually, but not always followed by / and then the Regiment number.

This is a nonregulation marking. Should be 139.J.R. to be as per the order,but not all that unusual.

William,

Staff pistols could have been stored in the regimental armory as ready replacements or could have been issued to noncoms or messengers, etc. Very doubtful that it was issued to a commissioned officer. Officers were required to purchase their own side arms. Stab(staff) pistols are are a bit scarcer than company marked lugers. And were usually marked with a weapon number, ie; "139.R. .12. " A space left for the company number to be added after issue.

Also, it looks as though the R is improvised. Like a P with a leg added. This could be a clue as to why there is no J. and possibly accounts for the missing company and weapon number. The armorer may not have had a full set of dies.

Ron

[Edward Tinker]

This is what I was thinking;

[Ron Smith]

Ed,

It could possibly be a provisional mark, but I don't think so. I think it is an Imperial staff marking. Weimar Provisional markings were usually just a weapon number.


This is my 1921 Reichwehr Pioneer marked luger. The provisional mark is/was the weapon number, and was X'd out when it was finally issued to the 1st Company/ 6th Pioneer Regiment weapon # 22.

[thorin6]

Ron and Ed,
This is interesting--the book I took my guess from was "The Luger Story" by John Walker. In it, he mentions 10 examples of unit markings on pre-1918 lugers, and one of those is the 139th Inf Regiment, with the marks as Ron suggests.
Thought I would also post one more picture of numbers on my 1917 Erfurt--the only place I can't make out the number is the firing pin. It still has a very golder hue to it, but all I can discern is what looks like two small "0"s, which may be the remains of the bottoms of the "5" and "8", or something else.
Appreciate your help on understanding a little more about this pistol.

[Ron Smith]

William,

The firing pin is one part that is prone to breakage and may be a replacement. I can't see the number clearly enough in your photo to make a judgement.

Sorry for the lousey photo, but my scanner is toast. This is an excerpt from Jan Still's Imperial Lugers on the 1917 Erfurt.

Ron

[thorin6]

Ron,
Thanks for the information. Unfortunately, I can't see the numbers well enough either, even with a magnifying glass. Interesting that only .5% of Erfurt 1917s had unit markings.
Here's a loaded question--I picked this up as an upper-end shooter, rough finish, etc., but would it qualify as a lower-end collectable? Not easy to answer, but given the unit markings, all-matching (noting the problem with getting the numbers off the firing pin) to include the grips, but of course no matching magazines or holster, would it be considered collectable?
Thanks for your help in all this.
Bill

[Ron Smith]

Bill,

Certainly!! There is no doubt that it would qualify as even a lower mid-range collector. Especially among unit mark collectors who consider condition somewhat secondary. Even though yours doesn't have one of the more desirable unit marks. It is unit marked none the less.

A brief battle history...


The 139th Infantry reg. was part of the 24 Infantry Division,19th Army Corps. Recruited in Saxony.

1914 - Marne
Flanders

1915 - Flanders

1916 - Somme~ 24th lost 6,217 men as casualties.

1917 - Flanders~ Suffered heavy losses againt the British.

1918 - Battle of Somme~ Highly regarded by the Kaiser as a hard fighting Division.
Picardy
Avre~ Lost 800 taken prisoner to the French.
Laon
St Quentin~ Lost 345 taken prisoner.

Ron