Wish I had a 1915 Artillery

[tudorbug]

To go with this nice looking holster and magazines:

http://cgi.msn.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI...EBWA%3AIT&rd=1

Its enough to make me want to buy the holster and then starting looking for the artillery to fill it. :-))

I'd need weapon serial number 2348 a . Does anyone own that pistol?? Is it for sale?? :-))

A nice looking outfit, well presented.

The things that appear on eBay are a constant source of marvel!

[Ron Wood]

There are a couple of things about this holster that strikes me as odd. It looks like a buckle has been added to secure the top in the closed position, which would seem to me to indicate that the holster has been altered for belt wear. Also, the pouch for the tool has a snap rather than a stud. Perhaps Jerry Burney or some of you other leather experts could chime in on this.

[John Sabato]

I am not a leather expert, but from my years of examining Lugers and their accessories at gunshows, and reading everything I can get my hands on regarding lugers... this is just my opinion. I think that the holster is original, but was modified by a previous owner for belt carry as Ron has described because at the time it was done, the collector value of the holster was probably not considered even close to what it is today.

While the triple pouch looks genuine from it's construction, I can't comment on authenticity because the only triple pouches I have seen have been in photographs... and in particular one made from scratch by our very own leathermaster Jerry Burney...

While restoration may leave a few holes in the holster, if it were mine, I would ship it off to Jerry for his magic...

The magazines look to be in EXCELLENT condition, but maybe even too good to be original to the gun that came in the holster. There doesn't seem to be any wear on them at all, and I find it unusual that one of the mag bottoms is a different stain color than the other two... I guess what I am trying to say is the mags look too fresh have originally been part of this rig.

[tudorbug]

These are very, very interesting perspectives from folks with ever so much more experience than I have.

The difference in the stain of the one magazine bottom does jump out at me after I read your comment, John.

It's great to be uninformed, I guess! Or is it!?!?!?

I still wonder where the pistol went.

[John Sabato]

Perhaps the current or some previous owner of the pistol had no interest in accessories and there were sold to finance other pistol acquisitions... but who knows?

[lugerholsterrepair]

Gentlemen, This is a very interesting rig. Without being able to see the back of the holster I cannot be absolutely certain but this holster was made originally in this configuration.
The three magazine pouch is as rare as hens teeth. I don't believe I have ever seen one for sale anywhere. Of course I don't get out all that much...It is a very desirable set up and would be quite the prize for any collection. I am not entirely sure because of the date and manufacturers marks but this rig is either civilian in nature or an early military prototype.
George Anderson, who knows much more about this than I do, is bidding on it and may at some time explain more about it. At any rate, it is not your run of the mill military Artillery rig. I bid a gob of money on it searching for the reserve but it seems the fellow knows what it might be worth. I suspect it will bring around $1500.00 give or take. Jerry Burney

[John Sabato]

Thanks for the update Jerry

[mauro]

It is a very attractive rig. Should be interesting to have a photo of the holster back to figure out if this configuration is the original one or it has been modified to wear it in the belt. This is the first time I see a 3 magazine pouch. I guess this rig commercial.
Good luck.
Ciao
Mauro

[Ron Wood]

I have another question. Isn't 1915 an odd time to be producing "commercial" holsters, particularly for an artillery model? WWI was already nearly 6 months old and commercial production of Lugers was pretty much finished by the beginning of the previous year. I guess it could have been a private purchase item, but it still seems a bit unlikely in this timeframe.

I think it is a modified military. The front strap still has the original hole for the stud, with the smaller hole having been added to accommodate the buckle. Also, I still wonder about the tool flap having a snap fastener.

Sorry to be a troublemaker.

[Roadkill]

The name in the holster flap "Keckstadt" is an uncommon German/East Prussian name which originates from the area "Pempen", in the Memel territory. Before WWI this was east Prussia, after the war was given to Lithuania. It was retaken by Hitler and lost again after WWII to the Soviet Union and is now again part of Lithuania. The next line in the holster is "Berlin, Schonberg", Schonberg being a part of Berlin. This gentleman was most likely from Eastern Prussia, (only one Keckstadt listed there pre WWI),was involved in WWI, moved to Berlin after 1923 when his homeland was annexed by the Lithuanains, and then "WERNER KECKSTADT 10.2.1944" (his son?) is listed in the archives of the war dead. Pure conjecture, but this is a very uncommon name. And there is only one listed descendant in current records. Below are some of the references:

rk

Keckstadt, Fritz Bauer Pempen (damals Ostpreussen und Litauen - heute Litauen)

Nach dem 1. Weltkrieg musste Deutschland das Memelgebiet abgeben. Mit dem 10. Januar 1920 wurde das Memelgebiet unter allierte Kontrolle gestellt. Aus Teilen der Kreise Tilsit und Ragnit wurde der neue Kreis Pogegen gebildet, so dass sich die folgende Statistik ergab:
Am 24. Januar 1923 �¼bernahm Litauen das Memelgebiet.

Am 22. M�¤rz 1939 wurde der Vertrag �¼ber die Wiedervereinigung des Memelgebietes mit dem Deutschen Reich unterzeichnet.

Nach dem zweiten Weltkrieg geh�¶rte das Memelgebiet erst zur Sowjetunion, die es dann wieder an Litauen gab.

WERNER KECKSTADT 10.2.1944

[mauro]

Ron,
You are right, the 1915 is not an ideal period to produce commercial holster. I have seen several 1915 holsters modified to wear them in the belt. This kind of modification was done both during WWI and after for personal use.
What is strange and intriguing to me is the triple magazine pouch. Why in the 1915 a leather maker made a holster with a relevant magazine pouch that did not fulfill the military requirements (double magazine pouch)?
I do not know the answer. In any case, this appealing rig raises more questions than certitudes.
Ciao
Mauro

[Fritzer]

Hey,
Maybe I should file as a 'legal heir' to the property?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

"Fritz"

[tudorbug]

Extremely interesting and the outfit is now at nine bids and $510 but has not broken the reserve and there are still over six days left. I put in a token bid at about half this amount and will not bid further.

I've enjoyed the discussion on it so far very much. Certainly an interesting item.

[George Anderson]

I suspect it is a post war export item but am not firm on that. I have noted on other threads at other times that leathergoods dated 1915 are very common to alot of commercial stuff imported after the Great War. Best example I can think of is all the leather TM08 carriers maker marked and dated 1915.
I have an import marked LP08 with matching stock and three magazines. I am convinced that it's beautiful 1915 dated holster was produced for export after 1919.

[Roadkill]

Why would the owner have put his name and home address on the item if he was in the military and if it belonged to the military? Name and unit, perhaps even if it was a private purchase for military use.

rk

[George Anderson]

The owner has emailed photos of the rear to me. I have forwarded them to Jerry, perhaps he can post them. The holster was never rigged for a stock. It has two belt loops on the reverse that do not resemble those on a typical P08 holster. I am quite certain that it is a post war job. As I noted above, the stampings on these 1920's leather goods are probably meaningless.

[tudorbug]

In the meantime, it has gone up to $910.89 with 12 bids and the reserve has not been reached. Five plus days remain.

Just for the holster with three matching magazines and their case.

Whew!

May be not the hobby for us poor folk! :-))

[tudorbug]

Well, this interesting outfit closed at $1525 and met it's reserve!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...EBDW%3AIT&rd=1

[Pete Ebbink]

Well...for a "post war job"...someone wanted it badly at that price... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

What the heck was so valuable in this offereing...??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

[George Anderson]

Pete, now that I have it, I have posted photos on Jan's forum. I just can not figure out how to post them here. I am convinced that it is at least, finished post WWI from original parts and probably bought and used in the environs of Berlin.

As to value...I guess it's worth $1500. When my widow sells it it may only be worth $150. Measuring the value of an item as rare as this is like trying to measure a moving snake.

The rig was sold because the pistol had been stolen, along with the fourth magazine.

Here's the kicker. I understand that the thief took it out of the holster to steal it.









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