Looking at purchasing a luger.

[mayberryusa]

I'm thinking about purchasing a luger from an acquaintance, but am not sure what to offer to pay for it. I'm hoping that someone can help me place an accurate value on it by reviewing the information I do have on it, which I compiled using information contained within this website.
The information I have collected on it is as follows: It is a 1939 blued S/42 new-model luger (serial no. 5084) 9-mm with a barrel length of 4". It has no grip safety, but does have a stock lug; the toggle knobs are squared and knurled and the toggle's inscription is "s/42"; the chamber has the year "1939" stamped on it but I could not locate any other inscriptions on it; the rears sights are a fixed-v; the front sight is a wind-adjustable blade with the rear surface horizontally grooved; it has checkered wooden Walnut grips, without a border or an insignia, but with matching numbers stamped on the insides ("84"); the magazine bottom plug is made from aluminum and is stamped with the serial number, a cursive "u", and an eagle with a "63" below it. It has a hold-open device and "gesichert" is written under the safety lever, which is safe in the rear position. All parts, including the magazine, have matching numbers on them ("84"), and it is in very-good, to excellent, condition. There is a marking on the right side of the barrel which is an eagle-looking stamp like Proof #47's third picture. There is also a marking on the left side of the barrel which is a slightly different eagle with the number "63" stamped just beneath it - this marking is probably only 1/8th of an inch tall and looks similar to Proof #46's first example. The serial number is again stamped at the base of the barrel on the underside, and there is also a marking of "8/81" directly underneath the serial number (with the slash in the marking being much smaller than the digits). Markings on the right side of the receiver, just behind the barrel, include 2 eagles with "63" under each of them (that are about 1/4" tall) and an eagle above something that we think may be a swastika symbol. There are also a number of other markings: there is a cursive "u" on the main frame, forward of the trigger guard, just beneath the base of the barrel; there are stamps that look similar to the letter "v" on 2 other separate places of the frame; there is an upside-down letter "g" on the left edge of the extractor; on the inside of a small plate (part #039 on the Parts & Disassembly breakdown illustration) there is a number "51" and a letter "R"; and finally, on the toggle there is a letter "C" and a number "7" that can not be seen until the firearm is taken apart. Any assistance would be greatly appreciated! I'd really like to have this piece for my collection! Thank you!

[Roadkill]

Based on the info and an excellent description, and without photos, my humble opinion would put this gun in the $900-1200 area, if it hasn't been reblued. The pros will be in later though. Welcome to the forum.

Rk

[Stu]

No expert on these things, but this sounds like a standard military pistol.

The letter 'U' on the frame is an important part of the serial number and the 8,81 is the land diameter in mm.

The first issue in determining value, (given the information you provided), is the percentage completeness of the finish. From your description it sounds high, maybe 95% or so, could you evaluate it in those terms ?

Secondly, is the finish the original one ! This is the major factor ?

Hope this helps a little, and posting a couple of pictures here would help the experts on the board give you some great advice.

[Frank]

Hi Ralph! Something doesn't add up on your pistol. It makes a huge difference in the value of the Luger. If the chamber date is 1939, there were two variations made that year, a toggle mark of "S/42" and "42", also known as Code 42. The S/42 had suffix letters (found below the number on the front of the frame) of n,o,p,q&r. The Code 42 had suffix letters of p through z. If the frame suffix letter is indeed a "u" and the toggle is marked S/42, I strongly suggest the toggle link has been replaced. That being the case, the value of the Luger is more like $500, if it in good condition. If you can add more information, please do! [img]smile.gif[/img]

BTW an S/42 is usually worth more than a Code 42 in equivalent collectors condition because of the lesser quantity made.

[Edward Tinker]

As all have said, the suffix makes a big difference, although difficult, please provide a picture of it. Some of the suffixes are hard to judge, could it be a N? Or something else? Take a look at http://www.lugerforum.com/lugermarkings/suffix.html and http://www.lugerforum.com/lugermarkings/suffix2.html

and compare yours against these suffixes.

[mayberryusa]

Thanks to everyone for their input! This has become an interesting learning experience for me. I am going to try to get some assistance in obtaining photographs of the piece I am contemplating purchasing, but that may take me a little longer as I don't have all the computer equipment it takes to do this. In the meanwhile, I have a couple more questions: Is there a foolproof way to tell whether the firearm has been re-blued or not? I have asked 3 people, two of whom have a good bit of experience in determining gun value and the other an enthusiast and collector, and only 1 person thought it had been reblued....so, I don't know what to think. The bluing is in really good shape, estimated at 95% or better, and has wear only in the places where wear is expected to be seen. Also, regarding the toggle possibly being a replaced piece - it does have the last two digits of the serial number on it ("84"). What is the likelihood that a part with the same number could have been taken from another gun? The letter "u", which thanks to y'all I now know is an important part of the serial number, is most certainly the letter "u". It looks just like the lower-case cursive "u" that is shown on the Suffix1 page within this website. I'm hoping this response will encourage more replies, but I don't know if this added information may be of much assistance in determining value. I'll try to get those pictures uploaded as soon as possible. Again, thank you to everyone who took the time to post a response! <img src="graemlins/wave.gif" border="0" alt="[byebye]" />

[Frank]

Hi Again Ralph, beginning with the G-Date Lugers in 1935 and ending with the 1939 S/42 production, there were 400,000 Lugers produced with S/42 toggles that are similar. I have discounted the K-Dates because of their somewhat unique markings. The number "84" would appear on 1 in every 100, so somewhere around 4000, S/42 "84" toggles were manufactured. The chances of finding one is certainly NOT astronomical. Since I never say never, well almost never, the chances that the pistol has had a toggle transplant is very large, IMHO

If you are looking for a collectable Luger, I would run away! If you are looking for a shooter and can buy it at a reasonable price, say $400 to $500, then it's your call.

Good Luck!!

<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

[Thor]

[quote]Frank said ". I have discounted the K-Dates because of their somewhat unique markings." <hr></blockquote>
They (K Dates) are kinda cool huh Frank? <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

[Frank]

Thor, Yep and we should know. It's like having twins!!!

<img src="graemlins/drink.gif" border="0" alt="[cherrsagai]" />

[mayberryusa]

Well, I don't know exactly what I'm doing, but hopefully these photographs will upload alright.










I'm looking forward to reading any comments these pictures may bring. I'm also hoping they are good enough pictures that what I want to be seen can be seen. Again, thank you!

[wterrell]

OK, here goes.
This is a totally re-blued pistol. If you take a look at the frame beneath the rear toggle link, the frame portion that ceases the backward progression of the toggle assembly, there is no mark or impression that would show that the pistol has been fired. So...the pistol has not been fired.

Before we proceed any further, are you a person who is searching for ways to make your Luger appear more authentic?
Be aware that the pistol has now been documented by posting and the serial numbers have been recorded.

I would say the grips are replacement.
The safety has not been used, as there is no wear trail from safe to fire.
The cannon has not worn any surface forward of the trigger plate.
Grip screws have been replaced or reblued.

The pistol is worth $500 as a shooter.

[Edward Tinker]

Sorry deleted your other posting and tried to add them all to the other, exceeded the amount, here are the other two pictures:

Ed

[lugerholsterrepair]

Once again I find myself at odds with Wes. I must say this is as fine an example of this type of pistol as I have ever seen. While what Wes says is certainly true, it is entirely possible that this pistol is original. The photo's are excellent and if this pistol has been reblued I want the name of the fellow who did it. The numbers are crisp and the colorings of the different metals are what they should be. This is not your average re blue job and a re blue is generally applied because the pistol has had the original finish worn off. This pistol has seen little or no use. The grips do not look like replacements to me. The wood to metal fit is too good for repro grips. I would like to know if the grips have matching numbers inside them. I have a pistol of this year in just about the same shape. I have seen a number of these that looked like they just came out of the factory.The matching magazine means nothing here but it dosen't hurt. Something is more right with this than wrong. Jerry Burney

[Edward Tinker]

Okay, time to be ambivalent here.

Wes and Jerry have good points.

The bluing appears to be too good to be true, and as Wes stated, I don't like the lack of wear on the rear, nor on the safety area. Yet, if a re-blue, they did a really outstanding job, as the numbers are very sharp and clear!

I really believe this is one of those guns you have to have in front of you, torn down to decide if it is a re-blue or a pristine type of Luger. Also, as Frank stated, the u suffix doesn't make sense?


A couple of weeks ago, I looked at an amazing collection of guns, learned so much my head hurt for a week [img]smile.gif[/img] and I thought I saw a couple of re-blues, but out of 40 different guns, only one was truly a re-blue. There are some righteous pristine guns out there!

[Stu]

I would find it very useful if members of the forum could post some suggested inspections to determine if this pistol is original. It certainly doesn't look like the usual dip or reblue guns you see around.

I would also like to suggest that regardless of the condition of the finish this gun is worth well in excess of $500 on the current market. As a case in point;

http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/Vie...p?Item=6161986

now if anyone would like to tell me that the gun pictured in this thread is worth the same as the auctioned pistol referenced by the link, I have some great straight trades I'd like to make with them.
[img]smile.gif[/img]

[Ron Wood]

I will be the first to admit that an S/42 is not my main interest (made after 1918 etc.) but just from a general Luger observation standpoint, I tend to side with lugerholsterrepair. It looks like a very pristine original Luger and an excellent find. The left grip exhibits a bit more figure that you usually encounter, but not unheard of. I would want to remove the grips and verify they are original and matching.

The wear pattern is consistent with a little used Luger, probably one issued to a "desk jocky" and only carried for ceremonies.

The gun has been fired, but very little. Possibly only test fired. On a "fresh" Luger there are only two points of toggle/frame contact (see arrows in photo). It is only after extensive firing when these points have been peened down that a broader "toggle slap" wear pattern will show up.



There is light holster wear on the forward frame rail, but once again very little, indicating not much actual holster time.



Wouldn't be the first time I was wrong, and it for sure won't be the last, but from a finish standpoint I think it probably is an honest piece. As far as the "u" suffix being incorrect, I leave that to the experts.

[John Sabato]

Gentlemen,

I have just checked in after a long but enjoyable weekend and after reading everyone's comments I have some fat to throw in the fire and solicit opinions from you all...

None of you has mentioned the one item that I feel casts doubt on the originality of the finish.

Please check the photo enlargement I have posted of the magazine well opening and then comment on the existence of what appears to be a harsh file mark (most dramatic directly under the 63 on the magazine) and most dominant on the bottom of the stock lug... This appears to be under the current finish and to me it is completely out of place on a pistol produced in 1939 that exhibits such fine machining detail everywhere else...

Without a fine high-intesity light examination, and working strictly from the photographs I would have doubts that this pistol is sporting it's original finish...



That said, I think it is a fine looking Luger pistol and worth considerably more than the $500 mark in my opinion...

Just my

[Ron Wood]

John,
I admit that it is a bit disturbing, and I did notice them too. It looks to me more like machining "chatter" marks than file marks. I have seen similar marks on other Lugers, but usually on the bottom of the recoil lug. It very well may be a refinish, but if it is, it is a dandy.

[ken d]

Mayberryusa:

If you have access to the Luger, take it apart and look at the trigger lever and the coupling link(connects toggle with recoil spring). Both should be in the "white". Most rebluers and and some restorers miss this and they will be blued if it has been redone. My $.02 for $500.00 buy it!

Regards

Ken D

[Pete Ebbink]

Hello Ralph !

Belated welcome to our Forum...

I am just a beginner myself, only having the luger bug for ~ 10 months.

One thing that I look for in an old luger is that build-up of "brownish" gunk that I think is years of oxidized, old gun oil and lubricants. If a gun is restored/refinished; there is usally a degreasing and/or steam cleaning or ultra-sonic cleaning step to remove all of this so the surface will be ready for the refinish.

If you have a chance to see this gun, apart, you might look for this.

I have included a photo of my old 1920 DWM Commerical police rework, that shows this "gunk".

If the price is in the $ 400-600 range, (based on CA-State pricing) I would not hesitate to buy this luger; refinished or not...as long as it is in good working, mechanical order.



Regards,

Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />