Weimer Lugers

Stevie · 09-08-2002, 02:13 PM

I would like to know more about Wiemer era reworks. My pistol is a 1920 DWM, I understand the date is realy a property mark. Were these pisols considered a double date? You can barely see the removed date of 1916 on my gun with the 1920 stamped in the same spot. Did they totaly rebuild, or just refinish and remark the pistols? Is the serial# the same as it was in 1916?

Stevie

Navy · 09-08-2002, 02:20 PM

Weimar-era guns are facinating to me because of their rich variety and history. That was a very wild time in German history. As far as the re-worked W.W. I pistols from that era, there are hundreds of exceptions for almost every rule that anyone might try to state. Re-works were done by a variety of contractors, Simpson and Krieghoff immediately spring to mind, but they were also done by a variety of lesser known firms. The real pity is that due to the distruction from W.W.II, almost no records of these rework contracts exists.
A fascinating period that produced Lugers with "personality".

As far as the 1920 on your gun, it is probably a property mark as you suspect.
Tom A.

Mark A · 09-08-2002, 02:24 PM

What is a property mark? Does 1920 not mean Year Of Our Lord 1920?

Garfield · 09-08-2002, 02:44 PM

Not always. In the context of post-WWI Germany, all military owned small arms, machineguns and certain of their accessories were required to be stamped with the numbers "1920" on a specified area of the weapon/accessory. This marking denoted the item as being government property.

Doubs · 09-08-2002, 06:06 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Stevie:
<strong>I would like to know more about Wiemer era reworks. My pistol is a 1920 DWM, I understand the date is realy a property mark. Were these pisols considered a double date? You can barely see the removed date of 1916 on my gun with the 1920 stamped in the same spot. Did they totaly rebuild, or just refinish and remark the pistols? Is the serial# the same as it was in 1916? Stevie </strong><hr></blockquote>

The property mark (1920) was usually done at unit level and the quality of the stamping can range from very nice to quite crude.

I don't recall ever seeing a "Double Date" where the original date was removed and the "1920" stamped over it. Yours is, I believe, unusual in that respect. I'm not certain I'd call it a Double date as it really only has the property mark. What do others think of this?

Unless your pistol was reworked at some point in time, the finish and the serial number should be original. The exception being the area of the date where the original date was partially removed. That area will have been refinished.

Here's a picture of a Double Date DWM that I once owned. Note the neat, even factory date and the somewhat crude, uneven property mark that was likely applied by a unit armorer.

Johnny Peppers · 09-08-2002, 08:39 PM

Stevie,
If you have an interest in the Weimar era Lugers, you should get Jan Still's "Weimar and Early Nazi Lugers" book. It sheds new light and information on the Lugers of that particular era. There is a very interesting section on the "1920" and "1923" Commercials.
Many terms are so ingrained in the lexicon of Luger collectors that we will probably have them as long as people collect Lugers. A while back there was a "double date" Luger at oldguns.net with a lengthy explaination that the 1920 was the date the pistol was rebuilt. While 1920 was possibly the year the pistol was rebuilt, nevertherless the information as presented was wrong. I e-mailed them a nice message explaining the origin of the 1920 stamp which apparently they chose to disregard. Explaining that I had a 1921 dated DWM with the 1920 stamp added didn't faze their preconceived knowledge of what they were advertising.
We will see old terms die hard as a dealer must advertise using the terms recognized by the average Luger collector.

Stevie · 09-08-2002, 09:00 PM

Cool, I'm going to have to get a scanner and show you my gun. Too bad my DWM is so pitted up. Probably been refinished at least twice. I bought the gun because I had never seen a 1920 before. I didn't know about property stamps until later. Except for the date, mine matchs Doub's down to the last two digits of the serial#.

Stevie

unspellable · 09-08-2002, 10:12 PM

The Nickle Plated Abomination has a "1920" where the 1918 appears in the photo above. That is below the center of the receiver ring as the pistol is oriented in the picture. There is no other date. It is possible the receiver was ground before the 1920 was applied. I'll have to take a closer look.

If 1920 does not represent the actual date the pistol was reworked, then does it represent 1920 as the year the war officially ended (Nov 11, 1918 was only an armistice, the war officially ended in 1920.) or the Allied Control Commision put the rule into effect in 1920? As in regulation of 1920? In Spanish spoeaking countires a lot of official stuff is marked "Ley de 1920" or what ever year the law was passed.

I no longer have the Jack Rabbit Stopper but I recall it having a chamber date of 1923. It was otherwise a typical M1920.

Johnny Peppers · 09-08-2002, 11:52 PM

The directive to mark all small arms as property of the Reichswehr with the 1920 property stamp came out in August of 1920.
There were DWM commercial Lugers made in 1920 and 1921 with the year stamped on the receiver above the chamber, and are found in the ns, a, and b letter suffix range. The factory date stamp is usually much more evenly stamped than the hand stamped 1920 property number.

09-08-2002, 02:13 PM	#1
Stevie User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Ok. Posts: 212 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Weimer Lugers I would like to know more about Wiemer era reworks. My pistol is a 1920 DWM, I understand the date is realy a property mark. Were these pisols considered a double date? You can barely see the removed date of 1916 on my gun with the 1920 stamped in the same spot. Did they totaly rebuild, or just refinish and remark the pistols? Is the serial# the same as it was in 1916? Stevie

09-08-2002, 02:24 PM	#3
Mark A User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Wheat Ridge, CO Posts: 105 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	What is a property mark? Does 1920 not mean Year Of Our Lord 1920? __________________ Mark

09-08-2002, 02:20 PM	#2
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Weimar-era guns are facinating to me because of their rich variety and history. That was a very wild time in German history. As far as the re-worked W.W. I pistols from that era, there are hundreds of exceptions for almost every rule that anyone might try to state. Re-works were done by a variety of contractors, Simpson and Krieghoff immediately spring to mind, but they were also done by a variety of lesser known firms. The real pity is that due to the distruction from W.W.II, almost no records of these rework contracts exists. A fascinating period that produced Lugers with "personality". As far as the 1920 on your gun, it is probably a property mark as you suspect. Tom A.

09-08-2002, 02:44 PM	#4
Garfield User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A little SE of Nome Posts: 239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Not always. In the context of post-WWI Germany, all military owned small arms, machineguns and certain of their accessories were required to be stamped with the numbers "1920" on a specified area of the weapon/accessory. This marking denoted the item as being government property.

09-08-2002, 06:06 PM	#5
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,671 Thanks: 772 Thanked 1,617 Times in 526 Posts	[quote]Originally posted by Stevie: <strong>I would like to know more about Wiemer era reworks. My pistol is a 1920 DWM, I understand the date is realy a property mark. Were these pisols considered a double date? You can barely see the removed date of 1916 on my gun with the 1920 stamped in the same spot. Did they totaly rebuild, or just refinish and remark the pistols? Is the serial# the same as it was in 1916? Stevie </strong><hr></blockquote> The property mark (1920) was usually done at unit level and the quality of the stamping can range from very nice to quite crude. I don't recall ever seeing a "Double Date" where the original date was removed and the "1920" stamped over it. Yours is, I believe, unusual in that respect. I'm not certain I'd call it a Double date as it really only has the property mark. What do others think of this? Unless your pistol was reworked at some point in time, the finish and the serial number should be original. The exception being the area of the date where the original date was partially removed. That area will have been refinished. Here's a picture of a Double Date DWM that I once owned. Note the neat, even factory date and the somewhat crude, uneven property mark that was likely applied by a unit armorer.

09-08-2002, 08:39 PM	#6
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Stevie, If you have an interest in the Weimar era Lugers, you should get Jan Still's "Weimar and Early Nazi Lugers" book. It sheds new light and information on the Lugers of that particular era. There is a very interesting section on the "1920" and "1923" Commercials. Many terms are so ingrained in the lexicon of Luger collectors that we will probably have them as long as people collect Lugers. A while back there was a "double date" Luger at oldguns.net with a lengthy explaination that the 1920 was the date the pistol was rebuilt. While 1920 was possibly the year the pistol was rebuilt, nevertherless the information as presented was wrong. I e-mailed them a nice message explaining the origin of the 1920 stamp which apparently they chose to disregard. Explaining that I had a 1921 dated DWM with the 1920 stamp added didn't faze their preconceived knowledge of what they were advertising. We will see old terms die hard as a dealer must advertise using the terms recognized by the average Luger collector.

09-08-2002, 09:00 PM	#7
Stevie User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Ok. Posts: 212 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Cool, I'm going to have to get a scanner and show you my gun. Too bad my DWM is so pitted up. Probably been refinished at least twice. I bought the gun because I had never seen a 1920 before. I didn't know about property stamps until later. Except for the date, mine matchs Doub's down to the last two digits of the serial#. Stevie

09-08-2002, 10:12 PM	#8
unspellable User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 768 Thanks: 0 Thanked 19 Times in 11 Posts	The Nickle Plated Abomination has a "1920" where the 1918 appears in the photo above. That is below the center of the receiver ring as the pistol is oriented in the picture. There is no other date. It is possible the receiver was ground before the 1920 was applied. I'll have to take a closer look. If 1920 does not represent the actual date the pistol was reworked, then does it represent 1920 as the year the war officially ended (Nov 11, 1918 was only an armistice, the war officially ended in 1920.) or the Allied Control Commision put the rule into effect in 1920? As in regulation of 1920? In Spanish spoeaking countires a lot of official stuff is marked "Ley de 1920" or what ever year the law was passed. I no longer have the Jack Rabbit Stopper but I recall it having a chamber date of 1923. It was otherwise a typical M1920.

09-08-2002, 11:52 PM	#9
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	The directive to mark all small arms as property of the Reichswehr with the 1920 property stamp came out in August of 1920. There were DWM commercial Lugers made in 1920 and 1921 with the year stamped on the receiver above the chamber, and are found in the ns, a, and b letter suffix range. The factory date stamp is usually much more evenly stamped than the hand stamped 1920 property number.