High-ranking Nazis and revolvers ?

ichabod · 11-29-2002, 07:55 PM

I have seen pics of Goering surrendering a revolver to his captors in 1945 and have heard of other Nazi big-wigs toting revolvers. It seems to me a Reichsrevolver would be incredibly obsolete by the mid 1940s - does anyone have any info on revolvers in the Third Reich ?

Pete Ebbink · 11-29-2002, 08:29 PM

Duane,

If you do not get a reply here in a few days, you might try the following :

http://www.thirdreichforum.com/phpBB2/

Regards,

Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

Edward Tinker · 11-29-2002, 09:51 PM

Somebody a month or so ago stated that Goerings was a S&W Victory (or .38 Special), I don't know if that is true...

Roadkill · 11-29-2002, 10:12 PM

Any firearm a General Officer carries is 90% symbol of authority, 10% useful. Patton had his pearl handled revolvers, Bradley had an 03, Ridgeway had the grenades on his LBE, Schwartzkof had a 12 ga double barrel, Saddam does the same thing. Westmoreland never carried a firearm at all. General Dean in the Korean War is one of the few instances that an actual General got into direct combat with the enemy using infantry weapons.

rk

Mark A · 11-29-2002, 10:39 PM

What type of rifle is it that saddam likes to be seen with? Doesn't he know it's cooler to use an AK when you're shooting into the sky over the heads of the Stalwart & Faithful Followers?

Lugerdoc · 11-30-2002, 09:09 AM

Saddam's short bolt action rifle, appears to be one of the Persian crested 98/29s that CZ sold to Iran, or possibly the Iranian 1949 copy. Tom H.

Hugh · 11-30-2002, 10:47 AM

It is a common misconception that General George Patton carried pearl handled Colt Single Actions. When he read reports in the media about his "pearl handled" revolvers, General Patton became very upset and blasted the reporter good! His revolvers had IVORY grips, Patton's comments were that "only a pimp in a New Orleans whorehouse would carry a pearl handled pistol". <img src="graemlins/r.gif" border="0" alt="[king]" />

Stu · 11-30-2002, 10:59 AM

I'm sure I've read that the Goering pistol was a S&W.

I doubt anyone carried a reichsrevolver by then, unless by some perverse personal choice.

I wonder how many of them were gun enthusiasts and how many just carried a gun as symbolic of their position ?

Navy · 11-30-2002, 11:05 AM

Fat Hermann's S%W is in the West Point Museum. FWIW, Hitler favored the Mentz early on, then the Mauser 1910, and was given several Walther PP/PPKs during his time as Chancellor. Himmler appears in a number of photographs shooting Lugers with both left and right hand, but most pictures of him carrying are a small PPK. VonRibbentrop carried his (Now my) Luger when visiting the front and when his personal effects were captured the Luger, a C-96 Early version marked "System mauser" and a P-38 were among his things.
Almost all the senior Field Marshals and Generals/Admirals carried Walthers.

My zwei pfennigs,

Tom A.

max2cam · 11-30-2002, 11:16 AM

Tom A.

Is there a link or post somewhere that describes the history of the Ribbentrop Luger? I would be very interested in hearing about that particular P.08 and its story.

max2cam · 11-30-2002, 11:28 AM

I doubt very much if there are many photos of high ranking German generals with "revolvers." The Germans were early converts to the self-loading pistol and didn't look back. I have read that after WWII the German police were given high quality American revolvers and prompty traded them off for cheap semi-auto pistols.

However, I have READ many English-written accounts of German soldiers (including officers) who were supposedly equipped with "revolvers," when the guns were certainly Lugers or P.38s.

This is the rather bizzare British usage (as in England) of calling all handguns (including semi-autos) revolvers. I have seen "revolver" used so many times in print so that you'd think half the German Wehrmacht were issued revolvers.

The British like to correct us "yanks" all the time, but this is one example where the Brits use a term that sounds totally foolish, makes no sense at all, and is historically inaccurate and misleading.

German officers did NOT carry revolvers. If Goering had one, it was a fluke....he was rather eccentric...maybe he wore it with his pink velvet goat herders' outfit at Carinhalle.

Stu · 11-30-2002, 11:36 AM

I'd agree with Max about the use of the term 'revolver'. I'm pretty certain that the exception was Goering; I believe there's even a picture of him surrendering his S&W.

ichabod · 11-30-2002, 01:24 PM

Well, shoot ! I thought a Google search might clear clear things up but if you click on the link and scroll down on the right, you'll see what was auctioned off as a pistol taken off Goering by his captors in 1945. www.juliaauctions.com/firearms/firearms_div.html

George Anderson · 11-30-2002, 02:00 PM

I remember a quote attributed to Goering;"when I hear the word 'culture', I reach for my Browning." I'm with him but sustitute "multiculture".

Navy · 11-30-2002, 02:00 PM

[quote]Originally posted by max2cam:
<strong>Tom A.

Is there a link or post somewhere that describes the history of the Ribbentrop Luger? I would be very interested in hearing about that particular P.08 and its story.</strong><hr></blockquote>

There is a picture of my vonRibbentrop piece in the front matter of Jan's Weimar book; I have a great deal of documentation on the gun and its previous owners-quite a story-and have also gotten a lot of details about vonRib himself. Also have made contact with the LT who was OIC of the execution.

Am going to do a lengthy write up for publication on the piece and its owner as soon as my clients give me some time off.

Tom

Stu · 11-30-2002, 02:17 PM

Very interesting ! It may very well be true, someone here I bet knows the details.

I confess I'm a little surprised if that's the way the PPK was surrendered, in it's nice little case and all ?

This is the sale report though;

James D. Julia's Firearms sales nearly always include a few collectable lots from the Nazi regime, but rarely has a lot as complete and compelling as the two pistols related to the capture of Hermann Goering come under Julia's gavel. The historic offering included the engraved, gold-washed Walther PPK in its original box surrendered by Goering in May, 1945; a 1911 Colt belonging to Lt. Jerome Shapiro, the Jewish American soldier who captured Goering; and a Felderrnhall Celtic-style dagger. The items had come to auction through a friend of Lt. Shapiro who had acquired them from Shapiro's widow. The Goering lot, with a final selling price of $79,500, was one of the top sellers of the two-day sale held Oct. 8th & 9th at Yoken?s Convention Center in Portsmouth, NH.

Just as interesting is this page I found, denying this legitimacy of the PPK;

http://www.kwanah.com/36division/ps/ps0277.htm

Browsing other sites, some people claim Stack took the credit for Shapiro's capture, others deny Shapiro's involvement.

I suspect we need someone who's done some serious research to sort this one out !

That's one of the drawbacks about the web; there's so much info out there, which of it is true ?

Stu · 11-30-2002, 07:06 PM

Americans speak american, (quite rightly). The British speak english. Perhaps some confusion arises when we believe them to be the same language ? [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

Edward Tinker · 11-30-2002, 07:23 PM

Changed it to British Mr tacfoley ...

Not that you weren't correcting us again... [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

[img]wink.gif[/img]

Ed

max2cam · 12-01-2002, 10:01 AM

Quote: I remember a quote attributed to Goering;"when I hear the word 'culture', I reach for my Browning." I'm with him but sustitute "multiculture".

I'm almost certain I've seen that Goering quote but with the word "revolver" instead of Browning. I'll have to look for it.

A Browning revolver maybe?

Roadkill · 12-01-2002, 11:50 AM

Part of this probably has to do with the interchanging of the words "pistol" and "revolver". Up intil 1900ish everything was called a pistol. "Dueling pistols", "Pirate pistols", "Go get you pistol, pa", "Pistol whipped his dirty hide", "Pistol packing mama", "He carried a brace of pistols", "A Mexican rig with an ivory handled pistol", ect. There wasn't anything else. Enter Mr. Browning, now you have to differentiate from the two. For a while any handgun was a "pistol", "pistol" being used for "automatics" too. Then it went to "automatic" and "revolver", with the term pistol meaning "automatic", "revolver" being a wheel gun. So if someone had a "pistole" it could either be an auto or wheel gun depending on the era.

rk

11-29-2002, 07:55 PM	#1
ichabod User Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 31 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	High-ranking Nazis and revolvers ? I have seen pics of Goering surrendering a revolver to his captors in 1945 and have heard of other Nazi big-wigs toting revolvers. It seems to me a Reichsrevolver would be incredibly obsolete by the mid 1940s - does anyone have any info on revolvers in the Third Reich ? __________________ "No snowflake ever feels responsible for the avalanche." Haywood Yasumi

11-29-2002, 09:51 PM	#3
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,915 Thanks: 1,989 Thanked 4,506 Times in 2,080 Posts	Somebody a month or so ago stated that Goerings was a S&W Victory (or .38 Special), I don't know if that is true... __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

11-29-2002, 10:39 PM	#5
Mark A User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Wheat Ridge, CO Posts: 105 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	What type of rifle is it that saddam likes to be seen with? Doesn't he know it's cooler to use an AK when you're shooting into the sky over the heads of the Stalwart & Faithful Followers? __________________ Mark

11-30-2002, 09:09 AM	#6
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	Saddam's short bolt action rifle, appears to be one of the Persian crested 98/29s that CZ sold to Iran, or possibly the Iranian 1949 copy. Tom H. __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

11-30-2002, 10:47 AM	#7
Hugh RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Southeast Texas Swamp Posts: 2,460 Thanks: 2 Thanked 165 Times in 64 Posts	It is a common misconception that General George Patton carried pearl handled Colt Single Actions. When he read reports in the media about his "pearl handled" revolvers, General Patton became very upset and blasted the reporter good! His revolvers had IVORY grips, Patton's comments were that "only a pimp in a New Orleans whorehouse would carry a pearl handled pistol". <img src="graemlins/r.gif" border="0" alt="[king]" /> __________________ *TRUMP FOR PREZ IN '20!*

11-29-2002, 08:29 PM	#2
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Duane, If you do not get a reply here in a few days, you might try the following : http://www.thirdreichforum.com/phpBB2/ Regards, Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

11-29-2002, 10:12 PM	#4
Roadkill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,632 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 17 Posts	Any firearm a General Officer carries is 90% symbol of authority, 10% useful. Patton had his pearl handled revolvers, Bradley had an 03, Ridgeway had the grenades on his LBE, Schwartzkof had a 12 ga double barrel, Saddam does the same thing. Westmoreland never carried a firearm at all. General Dean in the Korean War is one of the few instances that an actual General got into direct combat with the enemy using infantry weapons. rk

11-30-2002, 10:59 AM	#8
Stu User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Atlanta GA Posts: 451 Thanks: 4 Thanked 25 Times in 16 Posts	I'm sure I've read that the Goering pistol was a S&W. I doubt anyone carried a reichsrevolver by then, unless by some perverse personal choice. I wonder how many of them were gun enthusiasts and how many just carried a gun as symbolic of their position ?

11-30-2002, 11:05 AM	#9
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Fat Hermann's S%W is in the West Point Museum. FWIW, Hitler favored the Mentz early on, then the Mauser 1910, and was given several Walther PP/PPKs during his time as Chancellor. Himmler appears in a number of photographs shooting Lugers with both left and right hand, but most pictures of him carrying are a small PPK. VonRibbentrop carried his (Now my) Luger when visiting the front and when his personal effects were captured the Luger, a C-96 Early version marked "System mauser" and a P-38 were among his things. Almost all the senior Field Marshals and Generals/Admirals carried Walthers. My zwei pfennigs, Tom A.

11-30-2002, 11:16 AM	#10
max2cam User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: USA Posts: 97 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Tom A. Is there a link or post somewhere that describes the history of the Ribbentrop Luger? I would be very interested in hearing about that particular P.08 and its story.

11-30-2002, 11:28 AM	#11
max2cam User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: USA Posts: 97 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I doubt very much if there are many photos of high ranking German generals with "revolvers." The Germans were early converts to the self-loading pistol and didn't look back. I have read that after WWII the German police were given high quality American revolvers and prompty traded them off for cheap semi-auto pistols. However, I have READ many English-written accounts of German soldiers (including officers) who were supposedly equipped with "revolvers," when the guns were certainly Lugers or P.38s. This is the rather bizzare British usage (as in England) of calling all handguns (including semi-autos) revolvers. I have seen "revolver" used so many times in print so that you'd think half the German Wehrmacht were issued revolvers. The British like to correct us "yanks" all the time, but this is one example where the Brits use a term that sounds totally foolish, makes no sense at all, and is historically inaccurate and misleading. German officers did NOT carry revolvers. If Goering had one, it was a fluke....he was rather eccentric...maybe he wore it with his pink velvet goat herders' outfit at Carinhalle.

11-30-2002, 11:36 AM	#12
Stu User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Atlanta GA Posts: 451 Thanks: 4 Thanked 25 Times in 16 Posts	I'd agree with Max about the use of the term 'revolver'. I'm pretty certain that the exception was Goering; I believe there's even a picture of him surrendering his S&W.

11-30-2002, 01:24 PM	#13
ichabod User Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 31 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Well, shoot ! I thought a Google search might clear clear things up but if you click on the link and scroll down on the right, you'll see what was auctioned off as a pistol taken off Goering by his captors in 1945. www.juliaauctions.com/firearms/firearms_div.html __________________ "No snowflake ever feels responsible for the avalanche." Haywood Yasumi

11-30-2002, 02:00 PM	#14
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,772 Thanked 2,527 Times in 786 Posts	I remember a quote attributed to Goering;"when I hear the word 'culture', I reach for my Browning." I'm with him but sustitute "multiculture".

11-30-2002, 02:17 PM	#16
Stu User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Atlanta GA Posts: 451 Thanks: 4 Thanked 25 Times in 16 Posts	Very interesting ! It may very well be true, someone here I bet knows the details. I confess I'm a little surprised if that's the way the PPK was surrendered, in it's nice little case and all ? This is the sale report though; James D. Julia's Firearms sales nearly always include a few collectable lots from the Nazi regime, but rarely has a lot as complete and compelling as the two pistols related to the capture of Hermann Goering come under Julia's gavel. The historic offering included the engraved, gold-washed Walther PPK in its original box surrendered by Goering in May, 1945; a 1911 Colt belonging to Lt. Jerome Shapiro, the Jewish American soldier who captured Goering; and a Felderrnhall Celtic-style dagger. The items had come to auction through a friend of Lt. Shapiro who had acquired them from Shapiro's widow. The Goering lot, with a final selling price of $79,500, was one of the top sellers of the two-day sale held Oct. 8th & 9th at Yoken?s Convention Center in Portsmouth, NH. Just as interesting is this page I found, denying this legitimacy of the PPK; http://www.kwanah.com/36division/ps/ps0277.htm Browsing other sites, some people claim Stack took the credit for Shapiro's capture, others deny Shapiro's involvement. I suspect we need someone who's done some serious research to sort this one out ! That's one of the drawbacks about the web; there's so much info out there, which of it is true ?

11-30-2002, 07:06 PM	#17
Stu User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Atlanta GA Posts: 451 Thanks: 4 Thanked 25 Times in 16 Posts	Americans speak american, (quite rightly). The British speak english. Perhaps some confusion arises when we believe them to be the same language ? [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

11-30-2002, 07:23 PM	#18
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,915 Thanks: 1,989 Thanked 4,506 Times in 2,080 Posts	Changed it to British Mr tacfoley ... Not that you weren't correcting us again... [img]biggrin.gif[/img] [img]wink.gif[/img] Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

12-01-2002, 10:01 AM	#19
max2cam User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: USA Posts: 97 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Quote: I remember a quote attributed to Goering;"when I hear the word 'culture', I reach for my Browning." I'm with him but sustitute "multiculture". I'm almost certain I've seen that Goering quote but with the word "revolver" instead of Browning. I'll have to look for it. A Browning revolver maybe?

12-01-2002, 11:50 AM	#20
Roadkill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,632 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 17 Posts	Part of this probably has to do with the interchanging of the words "pistol" and "revolver". Up intil 1900ish everything was called a pistol. "Dueling pistols", "Pirate pistols", "Go get you pistol, pa", "Pistol whipped his dirty hide", "Pistol packing mama", "He carried a brace of pistols", "A Mexican rig with an ivory handled pistol", ect. There wasn't anything else. Enter Mr. Browning, now you have to differentiate from the two. For a while any handgun was a "pistol", "pistol" being used for "automatics" too. Then it went to "automatic" and "revolver", with the term pistol meaning "automatic", "revolver" being a wheel gun. So if someone had a "pistole" it could either be an auto or wheel gun depending on the era. rk