SUGGESTIONS FOR QUALIFYING ANSWERS

Jan C Still · 09-27-2002, 04:19 PM

Heinz · 09-27-2002, 09:09 PM

I am a beginner at collecting, but I am reading a lot of books, including Mr Stills.

I think his comment on qualifying and citing your sources is a great suggestion. I would definitely help in sorting out the truth and in correcting errors in references.

Edward Tinker · 09-27-2002, 09:14 PM

Good suggestion Jan.

I have seen some really good information here this last couple of months, and try to copy the good useful information to a Word file.

Dwight Gruber · 09-27-2002, 09:47 PM

Jan,

Thank you for your sensible suggestion and your continued patient commentary. I believe that given time this Forum can evolve and mature in an appropriate direction.

--Dwight

Doubs · 09-27-2002, 10:54 PM

As always, Jan, excellent advice. A reference, source or personal experience is always good to give. And if it's an opinion, say so along with the reasons why.

John Sabato · 09-30-2002, 11:20 AM

Jan,

Thanks for your insightful posting regarding answering questions for members... It is truely great advice...

I hope by the end of this week to have enough time to communicate with you directly about your suggestions.

Johnny Peppers · 09-30-2002, 02:15 PM

There has been a lively discussion going on over on a 1911 Forum concerning information found in a Colt automatic pistol book by Bady. It is chock full or incorrect and outdated information, but if that is the only Colt book someone owns they have no inkling as to what is wrong and what is right as it "says so right there in the book". Much of what we have learned about Lugers, or any other pistol for that matter, has come about through a sharing of information. I believe that if anything that is posted is just absolutely incorrect, there will be follow-up posts to correct the information. I believe that on the old forum there were more heated discussions when opinions differed rather than facts differing. I can't imagine anyone that would not want an incorrect statement they had made to be politely corrected and explained.

John Sabato · 09-30-2002, 03:12 PM

Johnny,

You make valid points... there has to be a balance. There are so many "sources" that one must digest all available information and then make a value judgement on the best possible answer to posed questions.

No one knows everything about Lugers... but sharing information as we do on this forum is the best available information on the Luger pistol. Jan's suggestions that members make a recognizable distinction in their posts between opinion and substantiated fact is also valid.

I wish that I had more time this week to devote to this discussion, but other obligations require that I cut this short...

I believe that the forum should be conducted on an informal basis... if we ever have to resort to the rigidity of parliamentary procedure just to discuss varying opinions, then I fear the forum will lose it's appeal for most members...

that is my

for now...

More at a later time friends...

Jan C Still · 10-18-2002, 05:47 PM

John Sabato · 10-21-2002, 04:29 PM

Jan,

Thank you kindly for posting the correct information. I realize it can be frustrating wading through all the information that passes through this forum and your patience as a recognized authority on Luger history is greatly appreciated.

All members should take care that the source of their reference information is made known in their post so the accuracy of their input can be judged in context. Please re-read Jan's advice at the top of this thread.

As there will always be new members (at least we hope there will) there will always be mistakes when answering questions... Everyone is encouraged to answer questions to the best of your ability and within the scope of your experience and printed reference materials...The best we can do is make corrections when we find them.

This method of discussion may not be perfect, but it is a far cry from 10 years ago when the only way to address this many Luger enthusiasts was to get published in a commercial gun magazine... The forum can be equated to a convention where everything that all 620 plus attendees says can actually heard by all other attendees... and is documented for all time ( at at least a real long time )

The problems that exist on this forum are identical to the kinds of growing pains that exist on every internet discussion forum. I don't think we will ever solve them all, but what we have here is better than you will find anywhere else at this scale of information dissemination. It is not like we can all go to the "other" lugerforum if this one is a temporary or recurring irritation. For the time being, it just doesn't get any better than this.

Thanks again for enduring along with the rest of us.

Heydrich · 10-21-2002, 05:52 PM

Post content edited for inappropriate language in violation of the forum decorum and Rennlist terms of service-John Sabato/Site Admin If you have a problem with this Heydrich you may contact me via private message.

Sorry for the attitude, maybe my parents put my swing too close to a brick wall when I was a kid or something.

This is NO apology...and it doesn't excuse your poor behavior or violation of the terms of service for use of this board. You may have any attitude that you want, but how you express your attitude on THIS discussion board will either comply with the forum decorum and the terms of service or DON'T do it here - This applies to you and every other member here-JS

wterrell · 10-21-2002, 07:03 PM

Heydrich,
I believe that an inappropriate remark by Herb is what drove the direction of the thread. [quote]Perhaps he did not consult with Jan Still before publishing his book.
<hr></blockquote>
This set the tone of the exchange, and I believe that you would have replied similarly as Mr. Still.

wterrell · 10-22-2002, 07:46 PM

Heydrich,

You owe Jan Still a public and explicit apology.

Be a man!

Orv Reichert · 10-22-2002, 07:56 PM

What is going on here?...why are Jan Still's postings all blank?

Orv Reichert

Luke · 10-22-2002, 07:58 PM

What is going on?

Can someone please explain in plain English?

Luke

Navy · 10-22-2002, 08:21 PM

Hello Luke et al,

I think the blank posts from Jan are because something *really* offended him and he took the liberty of being a member of this forum to exercise his rights to excise his previous posts.

This is his right and, as a very senior member of the collecting fraternity and the guy who has more published works on German pistols in print than anyone else on the planet, his absolute perogative.

Somehow, I guess there are lots of forum members who don't get it.

To have the knowledge and experience of Jan, Klaus,the Judge, etc. available gratis, is a tremendous freebie. You want your Luger appraised and evaluated by Sothbey's or a similar house, well, its going to cost you several hundred for the service plus the shipping each way. And guess what? You are not going to get the opinion of a Luger expert. You will get the opinion of a staff member "German Firearms Analyst." That opinion and $1 will get you a cup of coffee some places.

Folks, please recognize what an asset you have (had?) here. This was the greatest collection of Luger knowledge and experience in the world, yet a few needed to validate their own erronous theories or to attempt to validate one that was commonly held, but incorrect, and did so by denigrating the research and expertise of others who have gone before. On their nickle and without the benefit of the web and internet communications.

No wonder serious Luger guys quit; Why should they put up with the hassle of nimrods offering gunshow dealer explanations who refuse to consider the research that has been done.

Grrrr, makes me want to go back to my first love, 'brooms!

Tom A.
<img src="graemlins/cussing.gif" border="0" alt="[grrrrrrr]" />

Edward Tinker · 10-22-2002, 08:23 PM

Evidently Jan felt that the forum was not working towards a collecting and working together goal. I beleive he has decided to leave the forum. (I hope I am wrong, but I know that none of the moderators would delete a users posts in this manner).

I wish he'd left his old posts, but I am sure he has his reasons. [img]frown.gif[/img]

Ron Wood · 10-22-2002, 08:51 PM

Tom A's comments are right on target.

[quote] Folks, please recognize what an asset you have (had?) here. This was the greatest collection of Luger knowledge and experience in the world, yet a few needed to validate their own erronous theories or to attempt to validate one that was commonly held, but incorrect, and did so by denigrating the research and expertise of others who have gone before. On their nickle and without the benefit of the web and internet communications. <hr></blockquote>

I talked to Jan, and he does not intend to return. How sad.

wterrell · 10-22-2002, 08:55 PM

Gentlemen, do we grasp the import and gravity of what we have done?

If we cannot keep Jan Still among us, it demonstrates that we are but an ignorant bunch of rowdies who are full of ourselves, rude, and inconsiderate.

Luke · 10-22-2002, 09:06 PM

Tom A. et al

If Jan has elected to depart, this is truly a loss for all of us on this Forum.

First Garfield, now Jan !

Sad day, indeed.

Luke

09-27-2002, 04:19 PM	#1
Jan C Still User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Box 240188, Douglas, Alaska, 99824 Posts: 463 Thanks: 0 Thanked 52 Times in 32 Posts	SUGGESTIONS FOR QUALIFYING ANSWERS

09-27-2002, 09:14 PM	#3
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,966 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,595 Times in 2,116 Posts	Good suggestion Jan. I have seen some really good information here this last couple of months, and try to copy the good useful information to a Word file. __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

09-30-2002, 11:20 AM	#6
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	Jan, Thanks for your insightful posting regarding answering questions for members... It is truely great advice... I hope by the end of this week to have enough time to communicate with you directly about your suggestions. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

09-30-2002, 03:12 PM	#8
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	Johnny, You make valid points... there has to be a balance. There are so many "sources" that one must digest all available information and then make a value judgement on the best possible answer to posed questions. No one knows everything about Lugers... but sharing information as we do on this forum is the best available information on the Luger pistol. Jan's suggestions that members make a recognizable distinction in their posts between opinion and substantiated fact is also valid. I wish that I had more time this week to devote to this discussion, but other obligations require that I cut this short... I believe that the forum should be conducted on an informal basis... if we ever have to resort to the rigidity of parliamentary procedure just to discuss varying opinions, then I fear the forum will lose it's appeal for most members... that is my for now... More at a later time friends... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

10-21-2002, 04:29 PM	#10
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	Jan, Thank you kindly for posting the correct information. I realize it can be frustrating wading through all the information that passes through this forum and your patience as a recognized authority on Luger history is greatly appreciated. All members should take care that the source of their reference information is made known in their post so the accuracy of their input can be judged in context. Please re-read Jan's advice at the top of this thread. As there will always be new members (at least we hope there will) there will always be mistakes when answering questions... Everyone is encouraged to answer questions to the best of your ability and within the scope of your experience and printed reference materials...The best we can do is make corrections when we find them. This method of discussion may not be perfect, but it is a far cry from 10 years ago when the only way to address this many Luger enthusiasts was to get published in a commercial gun magazine... The forum can be equated to a convention where everything that all 620 plus attendees says can actually heard by all other attendees... and is documented for all time ( at at least a real long time ) The problems that exist on this forum are identical to the kinds of growing pains that exist on every internet discussion forum. I don't think we will ever solve them all, but what we have here is better than you will find anywhere else at this scale of information dissemination. It is not like we can all go to the "other" lugerforum if this one is a temporary or recurring irritation. For the time being, it just doesn't get any better than this. Thanks again for enduring along with the rest of us. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

09-27-2002, 09:09 PM	#2
Heinz User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Greenville SC Posts: 1,004 Thanks: 377 Thanked 411 Times in 180 Posts	I am a beginner at collecting, but I am reading a lot of books, including Mr Stills. I think his comment on qualifying and citing your sources is a great suggestion. I would definitely help in sorting out the truth and in correcting errors in references.

09-27-2002, 09:47 PM	#4
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,908 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,330 Times in 435 Posts	Jan, Thank you for your sensible suggestion and your continued patient commentary. I believe that given time this Forum can evolve and mature in an appropriate direction. --Dwight

09-27-2002, 10:54 PM	#5
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,736 Thanks: 819 Thanked 1,769 Times in 586 Posts	As always, Jan, excellent advice. A reference, source or personal experience is always good to give. And if it's an opinion, say so along with the reasons why.

09-30-2002, 02:15 PM	#7
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	There has been a lively discussion going on over on a 1911 Forum concerning information found in a Colt automatic pistol book by Bady. It is chock full or incorrect and outdated information, but if that is the only Colt book someone owns they have no inkling as to what is wrong and what is right as it "says so right there in the book". Much of what we have learned about Lugers, or any other pistol for that matter, has come about through a sharing of information. I believe that if anything that is posted is just absolutely incorrect, there will be follow-up posts to correct the information. I believe that on the old forum there were more heated discussions when opinions differed rather than facts differing. I can't imagine anyone that would not want an incorrect statement they had made to be politely corrected and explained.

10-18-2002, 05:47 PM	#9
Jan C Still User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Box 240188, Douglas, Alaska, 99824 Posts: 463 Thanks: 0 Thanked 52 Times in 32 Posts

10-21-2002, 05:52 PM	#11
Heydrich Banned Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Oregon Posts: 181 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Post content edited for inappropriate language in violation of the forum decorum and Rennlist terms of service-John Sabato/Site Admin If you have a problem with this Heydrich you may contact me via private message. Sorry for the attitude, maybe my parents put my swing too close to a brick wall when I was a kid or something. This is NO apology...and it doesn't excuse your poor behavior or violation of the terms of service for use of this board. You may have any attitude that you want, but how you express your attitude on THIS discussion board will either comply with the forum decorum and the terms of service or DON'T do it here - This applies to you and every other member here-JS

10-21-2002, 07:03 PM	#12
wterrell User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,096 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Heydrich, I believe that an inappropriate remark by Herb is what drove the direction of the thread. [quote]Perhaps he did not consult with Jan Still before publishing his book. <hr></blockquote> This set the tone of the exchange, and I believe that you would have replied similarly as Mr. Still. __________________ Noli me vocare, ego te vocabo, wes --------------------

10-22-2002, 07:46 PM	#13
wterrell User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,096 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Heydrich, You owe Jan Still a public and explicit apology. Be a man! __________________ Noli me vocare, ego te vocabo, wes --------------------

10-22-2002, 07:56 PM	#14
Orv Reichert RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SW Washington State Posts: 339 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	What is going on here?...why are Jan Still's postings all blank? Orv Reichert __________________ ORVEL L. "ORV" REICHERT

10-22-2002, 07:58 PM	#15
Luke User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: NC - USA Posts: 1,239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 19 Times in 7 Posts	What is going on? Can someone please explain in plain English? Luke __________________ "Peace, if possible; truth, at any cost." . . . Martin Luther

10-22-2002, 08:21 PM	#16
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Hello Luke et al, I think the blank posts from Jan are because something really offended him and he took the liberty of being a member of this forum to exercise his rights to excise his previous posts. This is his right and, as a very senior member of the collecting fraternity and the guy who has more published works on German pistols in print than anyone else on the planet, his absolute perogative. Somehow, I guess there are lots of forum members who don't get it. To have the knowledge and experience of Jan, Klaus,the Judge, etc. available gratis, is a tremendous freebie. You want your Luger appraised and evaluated by Sothbey's or a similar house, well, its going to cost you several hundred for the service plus the shipping each way. And guess what? You are not going to get the opinion of a Luger expert. You will get the opinion of a staff member "German Firearms Analyst." That opinion and $1 will get you a cup of coffee some places. Folks, please recognize what an asset you have (had?) here. This was the greatest collection of Luger knowledge and experience in the world, yet a few needed to validate their own erronous theories or to attempt to validate one that was commonly held, but incorrect, and did so by denigrating the research and expertise of others who have gone before. On their nickle and without the benefit of the web and internet communications. No wonder serious Luger guys quit; Why should they put up with the hassle of nimrods offering gunshow dealer explanations who refuse to consider the research that has been done. Grrrr, makes me want to go back to my first love, 'brooms! Tom A. <img src="graemlins/cussing.gif" border="0" alt="[grrrrrrr]" />

10-22-2002, 08:23 PM	#17
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,966 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,595 Times in 2,116 Posts	Evidently Jan felt that the forum was not working towards a collecting and working together goal. I beleive he has decided to leave the forum. (I hope I am wrong, but I know that none of the moderators would delete a users posts in this manner). I wish he'd left his old posts, but I am sure he has his reasons. [img]frown.gif[/img] __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

10-22-2002, 08:51 PM	#18
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,040 Thanks: 1,106 Thanked 5,257 Times in 1,724 Posts	Tom A's comments are right on target. [quote] Folks, please recognize what an asset you have (had?) here. This was the greatest collection of Luger knowledge and experience in the world, yet a few needed to validate their own erronous theories or to attempt to validate one that was commonly held, but incorrect, and did so by denigrating the research and expertise of others who have gone before. On their nickle and without the benefit of the web and internet communications. <hr></blockquote> I talked to Jan, and he does not intend to return. How sad. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

10-22-2002, 08:55 PM	#19
wterrell User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,096 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Gentlemen, do we grasp the import and gravity of what we have done? If we cannot keep Jan Still among us, it demonstrates that we are but an ignorant bunch of rowdies who are full of ourselves, rude, and inconsiderate. __________________ Noli me vocare, ego te vocabo, wes --------------------

10-22-2002, 09:06 PM	#20
Luke User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: NC - USA Posts: 1,239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 19 Times in 7 Posts	Tom A. et al If Jan has elected to depart, this is truly a loss for all of us on this Forum. First Garfield, now Jan ! Sad day, indeed. Luke __________________ "Peace, if possible; truth, at any cost." . . . Martin Luther