Blank firing replica

el Gaucho · 10-25-2004, 09:13 PM

Brand spankin' new here. Hello! Hope I'm on the correct place for this discussion. Let me know if I need to post elsewhere.

I have aquired a replica of a German Luger in the naval lenght (no belly buttton jokes please). 6" barrel
This particular replica functions and field strips like an original and has a working detachable magazine. The barrel is pinned and there is no firing pin, but I was told that this is a blank firing replica that used a 8mm round that also cycled the action.
On the toggle piece JAPAN is stamped on an inside bar.
I would appreciate any info on this piece such as approximate dates of mfg. and just about anything you could add. Thank you.
Ron

Edward Tinker · 10-25-2004, 10:23 PM

Ron, welcome to the forum!

I moved your posting to here, might fit better,

Ed

Dwight Gruber · 10-25-2004, 10:45 PM

Don't chamber -anything- in it that might discharge, even if a blank.

--Dwight

stymie · 10-25-2004, 11:38 PM

Hi Ron,

MGC in Tokyo made blank firing replica LUGERS.
Take a look at this link: http://www.modelguns.co.uk/luger.htm

el Gaucho · 10-26-2004, 12:11 AM

stymie, great link! Looks very much like the one I just got, except mine has the 6" barrel and no crest on the top. Also the magazine on mine is blued rather than chromed.

The blueing is not in as good of shape, but the price was right . . . it was in a baggie at a garage sale all in pieces for $1.00!! Got it put together, now just gotta find some blanks . . . or NOT.

Thanks to all who responded to my question and thank you all for making me fell welcome!

unspellable · 10-26-2004, 10:17 AM

I've often wondered how movie prop guns are made to cycle with blanks. Any body know?

stymie · 10-26-2004, 10:34 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by unspellable:
I've often wondered how movie prop guns are made to cycle with blanks. Any body know?<hr /></blockquote>Hi unspellable,

It appears that there is a trend to make action movies outside the borders of the USA; it's getting pretty difficult to film in California due to draconian legislation.

Most live semi & select fire movie guns are blanked by having a threaded insert in the muzzle to create enough backpressure to cycle the gun. Of course, there's no need for this in revolvers.

Often, AIRSOFT & other replica pieces are used in production with special effects added later!

Dwight Gruber · 10-26-2004, 10:40 AM

At the spring Reno show there was a Hollywood prop blank firing Luger for sale.

It was originally a 1918 DWM taken into Police service. The frame rails under the toggle ears were drilled for a couple of very small pins, which stood just far enough above the rail to keep the toggle from locking, although the breech was fully closed. The barrel had a constrictor ring added to it.

The gun fired special blanks, full-length cases whch were charged and primered and the mouths crimped to emulate a bullet ogive. It is loaded cartridge length, functions in the magazine and chambers automatically. The constrictor provides enough back pressure to operate the now-unlocked-breech mechanism, to eject the empty case and chamber a new one.

The seller had a couple of blanks to go with it, and was including the name of the person who manufactured the custom blanks.

I'd -really- hate to chamber a live round by accident.

--Dwight

unspellable · 10-26-2004, 11:54 AM

A muzzle constrictor might increase pressure enough for a blank to operate a blow back action or maybe even a gas operated action but doesn't solve the problem for a recoil operated action. Recoil operated pistols must be either replicas or heavily modified to obtain blowback operation.

The real joke in the movies is the revolver with a supressor on it. And it's never a Nagent gas seal revolver.

John Sabato · 10-26-2004, 11:57 AM

Dwight, How much was the blank-firing Luger (1918 DWM) that you saw at the Reno Show?

Sounds like all it needed was the pins removed and the barrel changed... would it have been priced low enough to make a good shooter if these changes were made? Was a FFL or C&R required to purchase (I would think so, since it was still a firearm)?

I'll bet that the seller wanted a premium price because it was a "hollywood" gun, Huh?

Edward Tinker · 10-26-2004, 01:06 PM

There was one on e-bay a week or so ago too? Was originally an actual upper receiver that had been modified for movies.

Ed

Dwight Gruber · 10-26-2004, 09:46 PM

Unspellable,

The distinction you are making is not clear to me. As modified, the blank-firer acts like an unlocked-breech blowback. I can see that the recoil spring might be a bit stout...

John,

The seller only wanted $450 for it, I admit to having been tempted. I'm sure that FFL/CR/regular paperwork was required, ATF were busting people at that show so caution would have been prudent.

--Dwight

unspellable · 10-27-2004, 08:36 AM

Dwight,

If you prevent the toggles from going down far enough to lock you are half way to having a blowback. The remaining question is feeding the cartridges. The Luger is meant to be recoil operated and the barrel/receiver moves back a bit before picking up the next round from the magazine. I'm not sure how that would work. Firing a blank with a muzzle restrictor doesn't produce any appreciable recoil. Guess all this fits under the category of "modified recoil action".

Dwight Gruber · 10-27-2004, 10:19 AM

Unspellable,

Oddly enough, the Luger action is not completely recoil operated! I just made a test to see if it could pick up a cartridge without moving the receiver back, by disconnecting the recoil spring stirrup and operating the action by hand.

As it turns out, to my surprise, as the toggle stop overlaps the frame it -pulls- the barrel and receiver to its recoiled position.

On reflection tis should have been obvious, as this is how it must work when chambering the first round by hand. Only with an old-model with a toggle-lock must you pull the receiver to the rear -first- before the toggle will open.

Don't everybody jump on me here, I'm not claiming that this has an effect on a Luger's functioning in normal operation. My comment has strictly to do with the blank-firing capability in this topic.

--Dwight

unspellable · 10-28-2004, 08:43 AM

The fact that opening the toggle fully pulls the receiver back explains how the luger might function in blow back mode. In normal operation it is strictly recoil operated. If you remove the extractor and fire it, it will leave the empty case in the chamber.

The question remains as to how other recoil operated pistols might be altered to cycle with blanks.

10-25-2004, 09:13 PM	#1
el Gaucho New User Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Blank firing replica Brand spankin' new here. Hello! Hope I'm on the correct place for this discussion. Let me know if I need to post elsewhere. I have aquired a replica of a German Luger in the naval lenght (no belly buttton jokes please). 6" barrel This particular replica functions and field strips like an original and has a working detachable magazine. The barrel is pinned and there is no firing pin, but I was told that this is a blank firing replica that used a 8mm round that also cycled the action. On the toggle piece JAPAN is stamped on an inside bar. I would appreciate any info on this piece such as approximate dates of mfg. and just about anything you could add. Thank you. Ron

10-25-2004, 10:23 PM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,960 Thanks: 2,062 Thanked 4,592 Times in 2,114 Posts	Ron, welcome to the forum! I moved your posting to here, might fit better, Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

10-25-2004, 11:38 PM	#4
stymie User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: KC,MO USA Posts: 114 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hi Ron, MGC in Tokyo made blank firing replica LUGERS. Take a look at this link: http://www.modelguns.co.uk/luger.htm __________________ "Irony can be pretty ironic!"

10-26-2004, 10:34 AM	#7
stymie User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: KC,MO USA Posts: 114 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by unspellable: <strong>I've often wondered how movie prop guns are made to cycle with blanks. Any body know?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Hi unspellable, It appears that there is a trend to make action movies outside the borders of the USA; it's getting pretty difficult to film in California due to draconian legislation. Most live semi & select fire movie guns are blanked by having a threaded insert in the muzzle to create enough backpressure to cycle the gun. Of course, there's no need for this in revolvers. Often, AIRSOFT & other replica pieces are used in production with special effects added later! __________________ "Irony can be pretty ironic!"

10-26-2004, 11:57 AM	#10
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,155 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	Dwight, How much was the blank-firing Luger (1918 DWM) that you saw at the Reno Show? Sounds like all it needed was the pins removed and the barrel changed... would it have been priced low enough to make a good shooter if these changes were made? Was a FFL or C&R required to purchase (I would think so, since it was still a firearm)? I'll bet that the seller wanted a premium price because it was a "hollywood" gun, Huh? __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

10-25-2004, 10:45 PM	#3
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,908 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,330 Times in 435 Posts	Don't chamber -anything- in it that might discharge, even if a blank. --Dwight

10-26-2004, 12:11 AM	#5
el Gaucho New User Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	stymie, great link! Looks very much like the one I just got, except mine has the 6" barrel and no crest on the top. Also the magazine on mine is blued rather than chromed. The blueing is not in as good of shape, but the price was right . . . it was in a baggie at a garage sale all in pieces for $1.00!! Got it put together, now just gotta find some blanks . . . or NOT. Thanks to all who responded to my question and thank you all for making me fell welcome!

10-26-2004, 10:17 AM	#6
unspellable User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 768 Thanks: 0 Thanked 19 Times in 11 Posts	I've often wondered how movie prop guns are made to cycle with blanks. Any body know?

10-26-2004, 10:40 AM	#8
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,908 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,330 Times in 435 Posts	At the spring Reno show there was a Hollywood prop blank firing Luger for sale. It was originally a 1918 DWM taken into Police service. The frame rails under the toggle ears were drilled for a couple of very small pins, which stood just far enough above the rail to keep the toggle from locking, although the breech was fully closed. The barrel had a constrictor ring added to it. The gun fired special blanks, full-length cases whch were charged and primered and the mouths crimped to emulate a bullet ogive. It is loaded cartridge length, functions in the magazine and chambers automatically. The constrictor provides enough back pressure to operate the now-unlocked-breech mechanism, to eject the empty case and chamber a new one. The seller had a couple of blanks to go with it, and was including the name of the person who manufactured the custom blanks. I'd -really- hate to chamber a live round by accident. --Dwight

10-26-2004, 11:54 AM	#9
unspellable User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 768 Thanks: 0 Thanked 19 Times in 11 Posts	A muzzle constrictor might increase pressure enough for a blank to operate a blow back action or maybe even a gas operated action but doesn't solve the problem for a recoil operated action. Recoil operated pistols must be either replicas or heavily modified to obtain blowback operation. The real joke in the movies is the revolver with a supressor on it. And it's never a Nagent gas seal revolver.

10-26-2004, 01:06 PM	#11
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,960 Thanks: 2,062 Thanked 4,592 Times in 2,114 Posts	There was one on e-bay a week or so ago too? Was originally an actual upper receiver that had been modified for movies. Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

10-26-2004, 09:46 PM	#12
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,908 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,330 Times in 435 Posts	Unspellable, The distinction you are making is not clear to me. As modified, the blank-firer acts like an unlocked-breech blowback. I can see that the recoil spring might be a bit stout... John, The seller only wanted $450 for it, I admit to having been tempted. I'm sure that FFL/CR/regular paperwork was required, ATF were busting people at that show so caution would have been prudent. --Dwight

10-27-2004, 08:36 AM	#13
unspellable User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 768 Thanks: 0 Thanked 19 Times in 11 Posts	Dwight, If you prevent the toggles from going down far enough to lock you are half way to having a blowback. The remaining question is feeding the cartridges. The Luger is meant to be recoil operated and the barrel/receiver moves back a bit before picking up the next round from the magazine. I'm not sure how that would work. Firing a blank with a muzzle restrictor doesn't produce any appreciable recoil. Guess all this fits under the category of "modified recoil action".

10-27-2004, 10:19 AM	#14
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,908 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,330 Times in 435 Posts	Unspellable, Oddly enough, the Luger action is not completely recoil operated! I just made a test to see if it could pick up a cartridge without moving the receiver back, by disconnecting the recoil spring stirrup and operating the action by hand. As it turns out, to my surprise, as the toggle stop overlaps the frame it -pulls- the barrel and receiver to its recoiled position. On reflection tis should have been obvious, as this is how it must work when chambering the first round by hand. Only with an old-model with a toggle-lock must you pull the receiver to the rear -first- before the toggle will open. Don't everybody jump on me here, I'm not claiming that this has an effect on a Luger's functioning in normal operation. My comment has strictly to do with the blank-firing capability in this topic. --Dwight

10-28-2004, 08:43 AM	#15
unspellable User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 768 Thanks: 0 Thanked 19 Times in 11 Posts	The fact that opening the toggle fully pulls the receiver back explains how the luger might function in blow back mode. In normal operation it is strictly recoil operated. If you remove the extractor and fire it, it will leave the empty case in the chamber. The question remains as to how other recoil operated pistols might be altered to cycle with blanks.