Luger disassembly

WarGunFan · 03-09-2003, 07:05 PM

I am a new member in Florida looking for a competent gunsmith to disassemble and check out a Navy Luger. I don't want to ship the Luger nor do I want to trust it to just any gunsmith.
Thanks,
Mark.

policeluger · 03-09-2003, 10:07 PM

Why don't you take some TLC and clean it yourself, while I have a gun smithing business here in Calif. perhaps I can give you some email pointers on getting it done. If you want too save a few dollars shipping, you can just send me the top by UPS as long as the receiver is not included the cost will be little, and for $8.00 cost I can check the head space for you.

Ron Wood · 03-09-2003, 10:53 PM

policeluger,

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> you can just send me the top by UPS as long as the receiver is not included <hr /></blockquote>Not to be nitpicky but to avoid confusion, the "top" is the "receiver". I'm not completely up on the rules, but I seem to recall that even though the complete barrel/receiver/toggle train is capable of firing a round, it may be shipped as you stated, and it is the frame that is the controlled item which can't be shipped without going through FFL/C&R process.

John Sabato · 03-10-2003, 10:33 AM

<img border="0" alt="[ouch]" title="" src="graemlins/c.gif" />

Ron,

Your interpretation is the same as mine. I feel this is one area where the ATF is totally confused. The "upper" receiver is the part that should be the controlled item, but ATF doesn't see it that way... they look at the lower frame as the controlled item. DUH!

There is no much consistency in ATF rulings or even opinions... The Ruger .22 caliber autoloaders for example... the ATF rightly thinks the round upper receiver is the controlled part, and the grip frame is not controlled... totally backwards from a Luger and the the top half of the Ruger CAN'T fire a round without the frame!

<img border="0" alt="[ouch]" title="" src="graemlins/c.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

PACKET · 04-24-2003, 09:45 PM

Wargunfan, I live very close to you and would be happy to help you out. I am an amateur gunsmith and have rebuilt Lugers.

unspellable · 04-25-2003, 08:21 AM

The Parabellum serial number is on the frame. Except for the little detail of the chamber date on a military being part of the serial number. Where's the serial number on a Ruger 22?

The modern gun control movement (There have been others in the past.) started in the 1950's when moonshining went into decline. Any bureaucracy will attempt to preserve its empire and justify its budget so the BATF turned to firearms enforcement. (The liberals got on the bandwagon a little later.) This meant they had a bunch of agents familiar with moonshining but not very knowledgable about firearms. It does not seem to have occured to the BATF to change this.

You will note that today the BATF is great at enforcing the rules when some otherwise innocent person commits a technical infraction, but they don't bother prosecuting actual criminals. (Ala the "100,000" criminals the Brady bill stopped from buying a firearm, every one of whom violated the law in the process.)

There have been only a handful of such prosecutions. As for the "100,000" criminals stopped, 98% of them were cases of some screw up in the records and they had no convictions at all.

Guess I'm ranting and raving. I have spells like this from time to time.

John Sabato · 04-25-2003, 10:36 AM

Unspellable... the serial number on the Ruger .22 autoloading pistol is on the round upper receiver... the grip frame is actually a stamped sheet metal assembly that is flash welded together... thus the inconsistancy on the determination of what is the controlled part of it by the ATF with the controlled part of a Luger... <img border="0" alt="[ouch]" title="" src="graemlins/c.gif" />

Ron Wood · 04-25-2003, 10:59 AM

It took me a couple of minutes for unspellable's message to sink in. The BATF uses the frame of the Luger as the controlled part because it bears the serial number of the gun. Sure, the barrel also has the serial number, but the barrel can be replaced legally, thus eliminating the serial number of that part. Also the receiver recoil lug is serial numbered, but only with the last two or three digts of the serial, so not useable as a control for recording and tracing. The serial number on the frame however may not be leagally altered or removed, therefore the frame is the "controlled" or traceable part. The same argument holds for the Ruger .22 - placement of the full serial number. There is no effort on the part of the BATF to control the discharge of the weapon, only maintain and control records for the "traceability" of the firearm.

John Sabato · 04-25-2003, 11:43 AM

We are in total agreement Ron, the only thing I think that the ATF overlooks in their techical ignorance (and in many cases ignorance IS bliss) with regard to the Luger is the fact that ONLY the upper assembly is required to fire a cartridge and in reality is the equivalent of a complete barreled rifle action... to wit

a "firearm" by any definition... This is not true of the Ruger since it is not striker fired like the Luger.

I would NEVER want to discharge a 9mm round using only the upper assembly, but I have it on good authority that one of our near and dear Luger fraternity on the Lugerforum who specializes in refinishing Lugers (but we won't mention his name

) actually tried this because he wanted to know what it would feel like... I know we are all grateful that he still has all of his fingers...

best regards,

John S

unspellable · 04-25-2003, 01:36 PM

Suppose I take the upper from a broomhandle, load it, put the locking block in place, tape it down with lots of duct tape, and swat the back end with a mallet?

It is an interesting point that in Michigan a muzzle loading handgun does not become a firearm until you load it for the first time. It is then a firearm forever after.

Here in Iowa it is illegal to equip your firearm with a sound suppressor but you will get a ticket for lack of one on your motor vehicle unless it is a Harley or the neighbor's lawn mower.

Here in Iowa it is illegal to shoot at a deer with a 32-20 rifle on grounds that it is too powerful but it is legal to shoot at a rabbit with a 375 H&H. (Which I occasionally do. I have a jim dandy reduced load for this.)

In my home town it is illegal to tie an alligator to a parking meter. Crocodiles and caimans are legal provided you plug the meter.

Here in Linn County it is illegal to possess a rubber boa on grounds that it is a viscious animal. The rubber boa's chief claim to fame is that it is the most innocuous creature known to man. Its notion of aggressive behaviour is to roll itself into a ball with its head at the center. It reaches the grandiose length of 24 inches.

And we pay tax money to have people sit around and think this stuff up!

Steve Richards · 04-25-2003, 08:58 PM

The other agressive behavior of a rubber boa is that if you wrap one around your wrist on a cool day they will stay there untill you take them off. By cool, the seem to act like anything below about 80 degrees F qualifies. They are native here in Oregon even if only a few people have actually seen one. Like you said, they are extemely harmless to anything except a nest full of baby mice!

John -Melb · 04-29-2003, 11:03 PM

Not wishing to sound critical, but I know a heap of people who would just about give anything to be faced with some of your sillier "gun control" laws right about now!
You should see some that we're about to be saddled with!

Jim Keenan · 05-09-2003, 02:37 PM

Hi, Ron,

Unless BATF changed its opinion, you were right the first time. They consider (or did consider) the barrel and receiver (not the grip piece) to be the firearm, for the reason you gave, that it can fire by itself. I know they ran into problems because the receiver does not normally have the full serial number but I don't know if they ever changed their position.

This is actually consistent with German nomenclature, where the bottom is called the grip piece, not the receiver.

Ruger asked to put the serial number on the receiver instead of the grip frame because the frame is too thin to take a number stamp without bending. ATF agreed, using the Luger as a precedent, even though they are different guns and the Ruger cannot be fired without the grip piece.

BTW, I have fired the Luger "top" by itself. Odd feel, but no damage done to me or the gun. The gun does not unlock, of course, since unlocking is done by the grip frame.

Jim

John Sabato · 05-09-2003, 02:52 PM

Jim do you know of any documentation that states ATF's position on what constitutes the "receiver" on a Luger? or the case of the Ruger as related to the Luger? I have never seen anything but antecdotal stories about this... and knowing the facts would sure be helpful.

What you stated makes sense regarding the ability to fire a cartridge without the grip frame, but is not consistent with most other handguns... take the Colt 1911 type frame as an example...

If what you stated is truely their (ATF) position then there are a bunch of folks who use eBay to sell the top half of a Luger who are flirting with legal disaster...

...and filing or altering the serial number off the grip frame of a Luger would not then be a crime???

03-09-2003, 07:05 PM	#1
WarGunFan User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Cocoa, Florida Posts: 15 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Luger disassembly I am a new member in Florida looking for a competent gunsmith to disassemble and check out a Navy Luger. I don't want to ship the Luger nor do I want to trust it to just any gunsmith. Thanks, Mark.

03-09-2003, 10:53 PM	#3
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,035 Thanks: 1,106 Thanked 5,241 Times in 1,719 Posts	policeluger, </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva"> you can just send me the top by UPS as long as the receiver is not included </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Not to be nitpicky but to avoid confusion, the "top" is the "receiver". I'm not completely up on the rules, but I seem to recall that even though the complete barrel/receiver/toggle train is capable of firing a round, it may be shipped as you stated, and it is the frame that is the controlled item which can't be shipped without going through FFL/C&R process. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

03-10-2003, 10:33 AM	#4
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,155 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	<img border="0" alt="[ouch]" title="" src="graemlins/c.gif" /> Ron, Your interpretation is the same as mine. I feel this is one area where the ATF is totally confused. The "upper" receiver is the part that should be the controlled item, but ATF doesn't see it that way... they look at the lower frame as the controlled item. DUH! There is no much consistency in ATF rulings or even opinions... The Ruger .22 caliber autoloaders for example... the ATF rightly thinks the round upper receiver is the controlled part, and the grip frame is not controlled... totally backwards from a Luger and the the top half of the Ruger CAN'T fire a round without the frame! <img border="0" alt="[ouch]" title="" src="graemlins/c.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" /> __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

04-25-2003, 10:36 AM	#7
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,155 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	Unspellable... the serial number on the Ruger .22 autoloading pistol is on the round upper receiver... the grip frame is actually a stamped sheet metal assembly that is flash welded together... thus the inconsistancy on the determination of what is the controlled part of it by the ATF with the controlled part of a Luger... <img border="0" alt="[ouch]" title="" src="graemlins/c.gif" /> __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

04-25-2003, 10:59 AM	#8
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,035 Thanks: 1,106 Thanked 5,241 Times in 1,719 Posts	It took me a couple of minutes for unspellable's message to sink in. The BATF uses the frame of the Luger as the controlled part because it bears the serial number of the gun. Sure, the barrel also has the serial number, but the barrel can be replaced legally, thus eliminating the serial number of that part. Also the receiver recoil lug is serial numbered, but only with the last two or three digts of the serial, so not useable as a control for recording and tracing. The serial number on the frame however may not be leagally altered or removed, therefore the frame is the "controlled" or traceable part. The same argument holds for the Ruger .22 - placement of the full serial number. There is no effort on the part of the BATF to control the discharge of the weapon, only maintain and control records for the "traceability" of the firearm. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

03-09-2003, 10:07 PM	#2
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	Why don't you take some TLC and clean it yourself, while I have a gun smithing business here in Calif. perhaps I can give you some email pointers on getting it done. If you want too save a few dollars shipping, you can just send me the top by UPS as long as the receiver is not included the cost will be little, and for $8.00 cost I can check the head space for you.

04-24-2003, 09:45 PM	#5
PACKET User Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: FL. Posts: 68 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Wargunfan, I live very close to you and would be happy to help you out. I am an amateur gunsmith and have rebuilt Lugers.

04-25-2003, 08:21 AM	#6
unspellable User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 768 Thanks: 0 Thanked 19 Times in 11 Posts	The Parabellum serial number is on the frame. Except for the little detail of the chamber date on a military being part of the serial number. Where's the serial number on a Ruger 22? The modern gun control movement (There have been others in the past.) started in the 1950's when moonshining went into decline. Any bureaucracy will attempt to preserve its empire and justify its budget so the BATF turned to firearms enforcement. (The liberals got on the bandwagon a little later.) This meant they had a bunch of agents familiar with moonshining but not very knowledgable about firearms. It does not seem to have occured to the BATF to change this. You will note that today the BATF is great at enforcing the rules when some otherwise innocent person commits a technical infraction, but they don't bother prosecuting actual criminals. (Ala the "100,000" criminals the Brady bill stopped from buying a firearm, every one of whom violated the law in the process.) There have been only a handful of such prosecutions. As for the "100,000" criminals stopped, 98% of them were cases of some screw up in the records and they had no convictions at all. Guess I'm ranting and raving. I have spells like this from time to time.

04-25-2003, 11:43 AM	#9
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,155 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	We are in total agreement Ron, the only thing I think that the ATF overlooks in their techical ignorance (and in many cases ignorance IS bliss) with regard to the Luger is the fact that ONLY the upper assembly is required to fire a cartridge and in reality is the equivalent of a complete barreled rifle action... to wit a "firearm" by any definition... This is not true of the Ruger since it is not striker fired like the Luger. I would NEVER want to discharge a 9mm round using only the upper assembly, but I have it on good authority that one of our near and dear Luger fraternity on the Lugerforum who specializes in refinishing Lugers (but we won't mention his name ) actually tried this because he wanted to know what it would feel like... I know we are all grateful that he still has all of his fingers... best regards, John S __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

04-25-2003, 01:36 PM	#10
unspellable User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 768 Thanks: 0 Thanked 19 Times in 11 Posts	Suppose I take the upper from a broomhandle, load it, put the locking block in place, tape it down with lots of duct tape, and swat the back end with a mallet? It is an interesting point that in Michigan a muzzle loading handgun does not become a firearm until you load it for the first time. It is then a firearm forever after. Here in Iowa it is illegal to equip your firearm with a sound suppressor but you will get a ticket for lack of one on your motor vehicle unless it is a Harley or the neighbor's lawn mower. Here in Iowa it is illegal to shoot at a deer with a 32-20 rifle on grounds that it is too powerful but it is legal to shoot at a rabbit with a 375 H&H. (Which I occasionally do. I have a jim dandy reduced load for this.) In my home town it is illegal to tie an alligator to a parking meter. Crocodiles and caimans are legal provided you plug the meter. Here in Linn County it is illegal to possess a rubber boa on grounds that it is a viscious animal. The rubber boa's chief claim to fame is that it is the most innocuous creature known to man. Its notion of aggressive behaviour is to roll itself into a ball with its head at the center. It reaches the grandiose length of 24 inches. And we pay tax money to have people sit around and think this stuff up!

04-25-2003, 08:58 PM	#11
Steve Richards User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Beaverton, Oregon Posts: 487 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	The other agressive behavior of a rubber boa is that if you wrap one around your wrist on a cool day they will stay there untill you take them off. By cool, the seem to act like anything below about 80 degrees F qualifies. They are native here in Oregon even if only a few people have actually seen one. Like you said, they are extemely harmless to anything except a nest full of baby mice!

04-29-2003, 11:03 PM	#12
John -Melb User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Melbourne, Peoples Republic of Australia! Posts: 145 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Not wishing to sound critical, but I know a heap of people who would just about give anything to be faced with some of your sillier "gun control" laws right about now! You should see some that we're about to be saddled with!

05-09-2003, 02:37 PM	#13
Jim Keenan User Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 184 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Hi, Ron, Unless BATF changed its opinion, you were right the first time. They consider (or did consider) the barrel and receiver (not the grip piece) to be the firearm, for the reason you gave, that it can fire by itself. I know they ran into problems because the receiver does not normally have the full serial number but I don't know if they ever changed their position. This is actually consistent with German nomenclature, where the bottom is called the grip piece, not the receiver. Ruger asked to put the serial number on the receiver instead of the grip frame because the frame is too thin to take a number stamp without bending. ATF agreed, using the Luger as a precedent, even though they are different guns and the Ruger cannot be fired without the grip piece. BTW, I have fired the Luger "top" by itself. Odd feel, but no damage done to me or the gun. The gun does not unlock, of course, since unlocking is done by the grip frame. Jim

05-09-2003, 02:52 PM	#14
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,155 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	Jim do you know of any documentation that states ATF's position on what constitutes the "receiver" on a Luger? or the case of the Ruger as related to the Luger? I have never seen anything but antecdotal stories about this... and knowing the facts would sure be helpful. What you stated makes sense regarding the ability to fire a cartridge without the grip frame, but is not consistent with most other handguns... take the Colt 1911 type frame as an example... If what you stated is truely their (ATF) position then there are a bunch of folks who use eBay to sell the top half of a Luger who are flirting with legal disaster... ...and filing or altering the serial number off the grip frame of a Luger would not then be a crime??? __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*