Fraud in Phoenix

[Aaron]

Checked out the Phoenix gun show the weekend of April 7th, looking to see what decent Lugers were available. One guy had a minty looking black Luger holster on his table. I asked if it had a Luger in it, and he proudly declared it contained a mint matching outfit including two mags. As soon as I picked it up I realized the holster was a repro. The Luger inside was a 1936 S42, dip blued and importer stamped, with the sideplate and many parts crudely renumbered with odd looking oversized numbers. The grips were new and crudely made, and the two mags were also crudely renumbered, metal bottoms, one marked FXO and the other unmarked. No loading tool. The price for this monstrosity? $1250!!! When I mentioned it was just a junky Russian rebuild, he grabbed it out of my hands and turned his back on me. Hope he didn't find a newbie to buy this rig! Someone else had a badly treated Luger covered with pits and some rust, but it looked intact and seemed to be capable of being a shooter. Asking price $195, but he probably would have taken less.

Something is wrong at gun shows these days. Rediculous prices for low quality and poor condition guns is becoming more and more common.

I don't know if it is because there are too many neophyte buyers out there or what.

The bad thing is, somebody will eventually pay way too much for the pistol you looked at.


Mike

When I started going to gun shows back when radios had

tubes and dinosaurs ruled the earth, it was a bunch of guys that got together and swapped guns. Many people only displayed their guns, they weren't for sale. Now,

in part due to the changes in the laws, it seems to mostly

be full and part time dealers. A business rather than a hobby.

Some are not as well informed, and some are just out to make a buck.

With lugers it is "only" fraud. The guys that are interested in Military Semi-Autos have to be wary of guns that are not

legal under current laws.

YMMD

P.S. I bought sold and traded at gun shows for years,

towards the end I was a "salesman" for my Dad's shop,

so I was dealer too.


Moron

The gun sales business is known for lots of fraud. Sellers frequently have no concern repeating or concocting lies to promote a firearm. Why this is so common I can't explain. It is also seen in antique sales and used to be common in used car sales but I haven't bought a car in a decade so don't know how common it is now. This behavior is an indication of how dishonest many people are. That is not new or surprising and it seems to vary some by culture, though that may be a politically incorrect statement. What is difficult for me to understand is the lack of pretense. Some of the lies you hear are so obvious as to elicit a chuckle but the liar will tell it with a straight face. Does this mean the average person believes he is THAT much smarter than others that blatant misrepresentations will be universally believed? When I am fed a BS line at a gun show, I quickly look up and tell him that's incorrect. If he reveals he knows it is a lie I announce it to those around me and make it a point to mention it to other dealers at the show. This way they know what kind of impression that makes and the liar, I hope, will hear how his reputation is being spread.


Last week, I agreed to purchase a CZ27 at a local pawn shop. The staff did not understand C&R license so I taught them and encouraged them to call the state and federal offices that could confirm the information. I agreed to return with documents that would assure them it was a legal purchase. The sales clerk, an older female, was excellent and put the gun aside for me until all the procedure details could be confirmed and completed the next day. I returned the next day (a long drive away from a busy work day). The mgr, an arrogant 20-something acting like the dominant male in the pride, jumped in and confused things by calling the wrong state agency and delaying the sale so long it was not possible to complete the purchase that day. So, two days I left work early and no purchase yet. I accept gun sales are difficult and heavily regulated so I am patient. I can not return the next day, Saturday, and wished to call the state arms background check office to id someone who could be a reference if there were any further questions at the sale. This meant I would return on Mon to pick up the CZ27. Fortunately, I called the shop and the mgr told me he sold the gun the day after I was there. If he had admitted he made a mistake (I was promised the gun would be held for me to pick up and I indicated it could be as late as three days) but instead he started explaining why it was my fault that I did not come back the very next day and it was store policy and blah blah blah. You know, if he had only said it was his error---but no, he had to string out a bunch of lies as to why he stung me with crooked business behavior. Only he and I were on the phone and we both know he was lying--why do people do this--is it some kind of neurosis?


To make a long story short, I figure it is just one more of a long string of problems that exist in retail sales these days. I would like to follow up on this miscreant at the Cash America store on S Academy in Colo Springs CO. What can one do when employees act in so rotten a manner?


Thanks for listening to a long story. I am frustrated, for sure, but I am especially concerned how frequently unethical behavior occurs in gun and other sales. If anyone has a suggestion what to do about these incidents, I am all ears.


dl


I came back the next day and

DL, The best solution is too make sure this pawn shop knows that they've lost the business of a collector, not a one time buyer of a CZ27 shooter. I have several of these in stock. Let me know if your are looking for a particular variation. Tom

[Marvin]

dl,


I had a similar experience with a local gun shop in my city in South Carolina. The idiot said that the State of SC did not recognize the C&R ;icense and he could not sell me a pistol I wanted. I tried to be nice and explain the law and he was determined that I was wrong. I knew I was right, but I called the ATF and they put me in touch with the proper person at the SCLED in Columbia. They said the guy was wrong also. I did go back to the same gun shop to get a "C" (part courtesy of Tom Heller) spring installed in a fairly rare, early, Walther PP and the the guy said, "yea, I can install this spring. I can repair any Walther PP". After 2 weeks I went back to pick up the pistol and the guy said I had the wrong spring, it should be a coil spring. I had also taken my book and left it with him so he could see where it went, but he again had determined I was wrong and he was right. Anyway, I brought the pistol home and installed it myself in a few minutes. This goes to show how much of an idiot some dealers are. I have never and will never set foot in his store again and he knows it now!


Marvin

[Matt]

I often get frustrated with the high prices at gun shows and pawn shops. But it seems every time I reach the point I feel I'm wasting my time, a "good deal" eventually pops up. Persistence and patience are the keys!


Matt

hi folks,


I am not frustrated because of high prices or poor quality products--but by dishonest business practices. When you waste a couple of long visits doing the paperwork (and retreiving the regulations FOR the sellers) then the bastard sells the item before you return to pick it up, that is crap. The jerk said store policy is to hold items for only 24 hours but that I did not return in time. Unfortunately this guy had some trouble in school--I was there Friday evening and he sold it Saturday afternoon.


Because this CZ was in the shop for at least a couple of weeks with no one interested and it went into the back vault as I left on Friday evening, I suspect the liar bought it himself or talked a buddy into it. Before I requested buying it, he did not know what it was but he is a WW2 buff (just not very bright).


The CZ27 was early hi-polish blue in about 80% finish. It had a chipped grip and was missing a grip screw. The magazine was damaged at the top but was functional (except the slide would not stay back on an empty magazine. I wanted to buy it to get the magazine for completing a rig. I have a couple of CZ27s in great condition. The price on this store's CZ27 was only $75 plus 6% tax. That is a good price for a shooter CZ27.


Maybe the best thing to do is write a letter to the mgt of this chain (Cash America--on S. Academy in Colo Springs Colorado) and note that such unethical bus behavior is not forgotten. This stuff happens but this incident grates me because the mgr was so blatently unashamedly dishonest and I put in extra time helping out the store employees on the sale.


Thanks for the notes, guys.

dave

holster guy

[Aaron]

Yes Dave, it sounds like you did get rotten treatment. Would it have been possible to put a small deposit on the gun so you could avoid the shenanigans? Anyway, you really did lose out on a good deal, as I just bought a spare mag to complete my CZ rig, and the mag alone cost me $45.

THanks for the note--and thanks to Tom Heller for offering CZ's from his stock. I enjoy locating a good buy and this would have been a good buy, although the time involved eventually wiped out the savings. I offered everything that would help the purchase. There was no need to lay out a deposit but would have gladly done so -- I believe had I laid out a deposit it would have been "lost". There was a tag with my name and phone number on the pistol which was taken off the floor and put backin the store vault. I don't see how any more effort, information or money would have helped.


Bottom line, the guy who goes by Randy shafted me then tried to deny what he did.


I am going to forward the facts of the situation to store owners at some point.