Why so many 1917 Artillery luger in N.Z,

[Lugers down under]

Something which may be of interest.In every gun auction here "down under" in New Zealand, there always seems to be one or two 1917 DWM artillery rigs, usually complete with holster, stock, straps and often a second pattern snail drum mag. They dont often fetch a high price as they always seem to be the same year 1917 and as I myself own four of these rigs I began to wonder why, so I started to ask some questions locally why so many 1917's. The answer surprised me.

Aparently in August 1918, one of the New Zealand infantry divisions over ran and captured and entire German division on the Somme which had not long been re-equipped including the machine gun units and hense the surfiet of 1917 guns. I have some 1917 Artilleries which are also RMG unit marked.

Hope this information is not too boring.
regards

[John Sabato]

Murray...Are you kidding? that is GREAT information... do you have an historical reference? The military divisions involved or the dates? If you do that would be great substantiation of your theory...

[Edward Tinker]

Thais is very interesting, as even "average" Lange Lugers are worth more than the average Luger. But, this is one of those supply and demand, it appears to be so many of an item... Shame we can't get a couple here in Washington, as I don't have one yet, <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> (1917 DWM Lange)

[mauro]

Dear Friends I spend some times in studying and describing the use of LP08 in the Western front on my book. Actually both the Somme battle (July 1916, September 1916) and the Verdun (February 1916) one are very interested to study, for LP08 enthusiasts, because of the German Sturmtruppen were employed. As you know the Sturmtruppen, elite infantry German troops, used also the LP08.

To learn these battles I bought several French and German books written in 1917 â?? 1918 that describe the front modification month by month. It was a very interesting research. Some results are summarised in my book, here I show you several historical pictures extracted by â??Almanach Hachette 1917â?� that are not presented in my book.

The first picture is a map of Somme battle with the front line depicted using different layout for different months. In the bottom of the picture there is a caption written in French that you can easily translate:

http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/somme2.jpg

The second one is a map of the Verdun battle:

http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Verdun.jpg

The third picture describes German soldiers captured by Allies armies:

http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/somme1.jpg

The fourht one a heavy gun captured by England soldiers (maybe also several LP08s today in New Zeland) :

http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/somme3.jpg

The last one a mortar abandoned by German soldiers and captured by the French:

http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/somme4.jpg

I really believe that for a gun collectors it is important to know all details and accessories of his favourite guns but also the use and the battle where this gun was used.

Please donâ??t hesitate to ask me if you need other information on Somme and Verdun battles. I can send you good scans of my historical documents.

Ciao

[Navy]

The Verdun campaign is fascinating. I have been to the battlefield and surrounding areas many times over the years. The frogs have done a pretty good job with their "Museum of the Trenches" in capturing the essence of the slaughter that typified the battle. Having said that, one cannot really appreciate it all unless you actually walk the ground and go through the remains of Fort Duamont. There are areas where the earth is still very spongy from the artillery fire even after all these years. As you walk about the area you need to be mindful that there is still a great deal of uxo and be very careful of what you pick up. I have a large shell splinter and an engineer picket that one of my sons brought back.
Fort Douamont looks like a mound of dirt from the outside; inside, it still has the smell and feel of a garrison that was under siege for a long time.
The best account of the battle in English of which I am aware is The Price of Glory by Alister Horne...a very interesting read, and one that made me very glad my war was many years later.

Tom A.

[mauro]

Hello Tom,
I will visit Verdun in the next months. For my research I have visited the Museum of WWI in Paris. A part of this Museum is dedicated to guns and militaria used by Allies and German armies. It is possible to see several Lugers and also a complete LP08 rig. All these guns are placed in the correct "context" where they were used. It was a very good experience.
Ciao

[Lugers down under]

You might be interested in this:



The gun shown in my photo above is one that was captured by a New Zealander, Trouper John Morton on the Somme in 1918.
The gun is all matching numbers including the magazine and the stock board. It is 95% original blue allover with some slight holster wear in the usual places.The back grip strap is unit marked JR 448 9K and the holster is made by Max Reuser Stalluonen 1916 and is stamped BA XVII.
The stock board is Imperial stamped along with the stripping tool and the cleaning rod.
It came complete with the second pattern Snail Drum Mag which was captured with the gun.

I learnt from Jan.C.Still that J.R.448.9.K signifies Infantry Regiment 448, 9 Kompagnie which was part of the 233 and 107 ID during WWI. He further says that the BA XVII on the holster signifies the 17th Army Corps, which two of the regiments in the 233ID are from. What this indicates is that, in a roundabout way, the holster is related to the Luger.

I further understand that the R.448, 449 and 450 were part of the 233.Inf.Division which was formed on Feb.17.1917. C.O. of 233.I.D. was Generalleutnant von Dewitz
.
The 233 ID fought in Flanders, Lorraine, Kemmel and the Somme during WWI.

Trooper John Morton captured the gun on the Somme in 1918.

His enlisted number was 9/308 and he served with the Otago Mounted Rifles (New Zealand infantry division). He enlisted on the16 August 1914
Served in Egypt 1914,1915,1916
Served in the Balkans 1915, Gallipoli , embarking at Mudros for Gallipoli.
Served in Western Europe 1916,1917,1918 at Flanders, Somme, Etaples, Abule.
Discharged 6th June 1919.
John Morton came from Isla Bank in Southland, at the bottom of the South Island of New Zealand. His name is scribbled both on the holster and the stock board and I feel we can forgive him for that little bit of graffiti.
This is a true piece of New Zealand WW1 History.

.

[Big Norm]

I have two books that try to help me understand the fighting of WW1.
"The Guns of August" by Barbara Tuchman. This book discusses the months leading up to the war and the first few months of the war. It gives interesting information regarding the personalities of various inflential people involved in it. Like the name of the first German officer killed in WW1.

"A Short History of WW1" by James L. Stokesbury. This book gives a broad overview of the total war and the military changes that occured as the armies began to run out of fighting men.

I have seen the "The War 1914-19' book that Jan Stills references so often in his books. Unfortuately, it is in German and I don't understand German. I have looked at maps of Europe and tried to understand why the Germans took that route through Belgium to attack France. But the landscape looks so mountainous that maps don't seem to help. I guess that its one of those things that you have to be there to understand.

There are a lot of 1916 & 1917 LP-08's out there because there were so many more produced. The earlier ones vanished during heavy bombardments. Many also disappeared when allied soldiers returned home and were told on the returning ships that anyone caught bringing home contraband weapons would be court marshalled. So troups, eager to get home, simply threw them over board. They say that the waters leading up to the unboarding of the ships could be walked on because so many weapons were thrown over board. But any of what I call full rig artilleries, are valuable. Its tough enough to find any artillery with a matching magazine, but one also with a matching stock is really hard to find.

I have a LP-08 stock that came with a 1916 holster rig that I bought off of an Australian a couple of years ago. B.A.X11.16 is stamped in ink under the holsters flap. The stock (serial #9283a) has the name D.A. Fowler of Goulburb (Victoria) scratched into it. Captain Daniel Arthur Fowler was a Military Cross winner in the 2nd Div Artillery and survived the war.
I have often wondered if Murray might have an interest in this trophy stock since Australia and New Zealand are so close? I would prefer to keep the leather holster and accessories though.
Big Norm

[Lugers down under]

Many thanks big Norm for your really nice historical observations about our two countries.
Australia and New Zealand are very much like the United States and Canada. Australia is very much our big brother.
The day our two nations were "baptised" was of course the 25th of April 1915. The ANZAC's landing at Gallipoli. That battle was the forge that created both of our nations and the ANZAC'S the Australian and New Zealand Army Corp.
It is our national day. No shops are open. No pubs in NZ until mid day. Every one attends ANZAC day dawn prade, young and old. It is, frankly, our nations sacred day. It is the day I can wear my Fathers, My gradfather's and my Great Grand father medals. All won on foreign soil. Only one returned, my father.
We are a very small country and nation. In 1918 we were very small with a population of less than 2 milion. In 30 miniutes, in one battle at Passchendaele, New Zealand lost 1500 men.
Of 2 million, 750.000 served in WW1.

The history associated with the guns that we collect is worth a thousand times the dollars we might pay for them.

In all of our military history, we served in every war, from the Boer war of 1899 to Afganistan last year.
Only one country has ever come to help us in our time of need in 1941.
The United States of America.

[mauro]

Hello Murray,
your LP08 is very nice and the relevant history as well. In my web site I have a dedicated page to LP08 pictures. Please can I put your picture and history in this page?
Actually I believe all LP08 enthusiasts will be happy.
Ciao

[Gene]

This is a bit off topic, but . . . . I'd like to mention that one of the most interesting and eyeopening books on WW1 extant is a relatively recent book by John Mosier, entitled "Myth of the Great War."

Mosier's interesting thesis is that most historians have been captive to the British and French wartime propaganda. Like all combatants the official announcements by the Brits and French during the war were nonsense, but oddly, Mosier claims, most historians since have simply swallowed these wartime lies whole. There seems to be much truth in this assertion.

The key point deliberately overlooked by most historians and certainly not widely publicized is that the ratio of deaths on the western front was
between 2 and 3 in Germany's favor. Britain and France lost more men on the western front alone than Germany lost in the entire war fighting
on 3 fronts. The ratio of wounded was even more one sided--about 4 or 5 to 1. The war of attrition that set in after the war of movement was over in Sept. 1914 was won decisively by the Germans. Furthermore, on the western front Germany was never outnumbered by less than 2 to 1.
Never. How could Britain and France have done so badly for so long given that continuous overwhelming advantage?

Germany could have won in 1914; they had victory at their finger tips, but they threw it away, basically through a failure of nerve on von
Moltke's part. They won repeatedly over the next four years, but simply didn't have the strength to put an end to the war. All of their
major offensives were quite successful, but the strength to follow through was not there. Thus, once the American army was in place and
functioning with almost unlimited men and equipment the jig was up.

I strongly recommend Mosier's book to those interested in WW1.

[Stu]

A possible partial explanation of the relative death and casualty rates might be that for a significant proportion of the war the allies were the predominately offensive participants.

I suspect we've all read and seen references to the tactical problems encountered of attacking against the technology of the time, (automatic weapons, smokeless powder, antiquated assault techniques etc), and the quite astonishing casualty rates suffered as a result. Of course the fact that the German forces, (in both WW's), were well trained, well equipped and often well led can't be ignored.

[mauro]

To analyse the German tactics in the Western front I suggest the book:

German Stormtrooper 1914-1918 (Weapons, Armour, Tactics)
By Ian Drury and Gerry Embleton

Coming back to the General Von Moltke (lock at Gene reply), he was not able to apply correctly the Schliefflen Plan. In this way the German armies fought against two fronts (Western and Russian fronts). Due to this fact, it was very difficult to deploy all necessary armies on the Western front. When the Russian signed the armistice with German (Brest-Litovsk march, 3 1918) the USA armies were already deployed in the Western front. When the German armies hocked on the Russian front were employed on the western front they didn't succeed in changing the fates of the war.

Ciao

[Big Norm]

Gene and Stu,
both sides suffered terribly. The Austrian army had a standing army of 7.5 million men at the beginning of the war. At the end of the war they had a half a million. This country suffered the worst of all countries involved.

The real hero nation of that war was the Belgiums. They slowed down the German strict time table, forced Germany to tie up a large portion of their army protecting the supply lines and, finally, they fought very bravely like nobody expected them to. Strange thing is that at the beginning of the war, they had their weapons pointed at England and France as well as the Germans. They knew that someone was going to have to go through them. They just did not know who. All this and before the war everyone thought of them as nothing more than poorly equiped and trained "Chocolate Soldiers".

The big disappointment was the Russian army. Because of the corruption of the royalty that ran the army, it had only two ambulances at the start of the war. I won't even go into the shotages of everything else. Of course having the ill prepared Czar take over command of the army did not help matters either.
Big Norm

[John -Melb]

I've asked this question before but our numbers seemed to have grown since then, so I'll ask again.
I've got a LP08 marked D^D (Australian Army property stamp, known locally as "Dad and Dave Industries") indicating Australian issue, I suspect during WW2. Does anyone know who the Lugers were issued to by Australian Army. I've heard two stories, one is they were issued to the VDC (Volunteer Defence Corp) a version of the British Home Guard, I've also heard they were issued to Australian Special Forces ("Z" Special Unit and the Independent Companies) for operations behind Japanese lines as they take the same ammo as the Owen Gun.
Anyone know?
Another interesting bit is the Local RSL has in it's collection the equipment of a senior First AIF Artillery Officer, including his Sam Browne belt, the holster is, you guessed it, a LP08?

[mauro]

Big Norm,
you are right.
Actually Von Moltke was not able to apply correctly the Schliefflen plan because of not predictable Belgian resistance.
Ciao

[Vlim]

Hi,

Well, the Dutch succeeded in remaining 'neutal' and profited from the Great War by seizing ships, weapons and airplanes that ended up on Dutch territory by mistake

A large part of the Dutch Navy Lugers came from German ships and the first Dutch airforce consisted of airplanes that were confiscated after emergency landings on Dutch territory.

[Steve Richards]

One overlooked piece of information that I came across is the affect typhus had on the Germans. Both sides on the western front were infested with lice but for some reason, there was no typhus. The eastern front had typhus. This prevented Germany from moving troops from Russia to the west in a timely manner. They had to be deloused, all equipment deloused and the men placed in quarantine until there was NO chance of even one of them having typhus. Failure to do so and letting even one infected man through would have killed about 1/3 of the German army within two months!

[Big Norm]

Mauro,
General von Moltle never did have the confidence and courage that his grandfather did against Napoleon Bonaparte plus he was hampered a bit by Kaiser Weilhelm II sometimes irrationability and temper. The whole war as well as history might have changed if it were not for one little lie by Moltke to the kaiser in the 11th hour before the war began. Plus, a number of the German staff did not have the courage to enact the most important part of the Schlieffen plan, namely to keep the right flank strong. They continuously weakened the right flank to strengthen the left.

Then there is the case of the two German generals, whose names elude me at the moment, that commanded the two wings that advanced through the French north. One was a warrior and the other was cautious. They were supposed to advance simutaniously. But the cautious one lagged behind the warrior one and eventually caused the warrior general to stop and eventually pull back until the cautious one could catch up. This gave the French time to reorganize and destroyed the rigid time table of the Germans.

The French plan, which was no plan, caused them to lose some 400,000 soldiers in the first few months. The British army at the beginning was extremely well trained and caused many German casualties at the beginning with their sharp shooting inspite of the British small commitment at the beginning of the war. The wear and tear of war gradually reduced this British advantage.

The big mystery of WW1 is that a German traitor sold the Schlieffen Plan to the French a year or more before the war began. To this day, nobody knows who that traitor was and why he did it. The French did nothing to counteract upon the information.
Big Norm

[Big Norm]

G.van Vlimmeren,
the Dutch did profit during WW1, but not nearly as much as it should have. Trade between then neutral America and the neutral Dutch was continuously hampered by the British who repeatedly confiscated shipments between neutral countries. The British continously broadened the definition of war material to the enemy. Few realise that the American navy wanted to go to war with the British over this issue and it almost came to be. But since America did more business with the French and the British then with Germany, the businessmen won. But this attitude with the American navy held through some of WW2 when American anti submarine home defense suffered because of it. Americas navy did not want to join with the Germans in WW1 against the British but rather wanted a separate war to protect our neutrality and sovereignty.
Big Norm