Export Marking?

Robert Markley · 03-11-2003, 10:09 AM

My 1912 ERFURT Luger is marked "GERMANY" vertically behind the safety lever. This is in addition to the normal "GESICHERT" marking but in smaller characters. The toggel is marked with a crown over RC in addition to other normal military proof marks. I think this indicates an arsenal rework.
Can anyone explain the purpose marking? Possibly an export marking?
Thanks to all for their help in educating this "newbie wannabe" collector

Aaron · 03-11-2003, 10:22 AM

If you will click on the "Old Owner's Corner" on the left, you will find my 1914 DWM pictured under the name "Aaron." This shows the Germany stamp located in the same place as the one on your 1912 Erfurt. These are ordinary battlefield pistols which the Germans exported to the US to earn some much needed dollars. I imagine that the better specimens were so marked and exported.

kidvett · 03-11-2003, 10:24 AM

Hi Robert,

The RC Proof indicates a review ( Arsenal Rework ) by the Revision Commission. You sholud find this small proof elsewhere on your pistol ( right receiver, front of trigger guard...). As for the GERMANY stamp, I have seen it mostly on commercial models ( like a 1920 ) but not on a military piece...I'd be curious to see it. Can you post some PICS?? It would help on the ID...

kidvett

kidvett · 03-11-2003, 10:28 AM

Sorry I forgot,

Yes the GERMANY stamp was for Export sales. For example; 1920 Comm. without GERMANY stamp for commercial sales within Germany/ 1920 Comm. ( same pistol & configuration ) with GERMANY stamp for sales outside Germany...

kidvett

kidvett · 03-12-2003, 12:20 AM

Robert,

Here's a small PIC of a 1920 Commercial made for sale within Germany as there is no Export stamp on the pistol.

kidvett

AGE · 03-12-2003, 12:44 AM

Kidvett,

I don't see any proof marks on that gun. Don't commercial guns have proofs? Does it have a date stamp?

Silvereagle29 · 03-12-2003, 01:53 AM

I wonder. RE: Crown over RC. According to the Gortz and Bryans book on "Small Arms Markings" the Crown over RC (Revisions Kommission) indicates the size of an individual part was not according to design. However, the part functioned normally. Once the pistol was assembled and functioned normally with the Crown RC stamp of approval on the individual part/parts (no rework) The pistol left the Erfurt factory. Mostly found on Erfurt Imperial Lugers. Just a thought - DWM had a commercial sales division, Erfurt didn't. When DWM parts were rejected they went to Commercial Sales (no Government standards, if it shoot, sell it) . No need for a Crown over RC. Erfurt had no Commercial sales division and was a Government owned facility (to my knowledge). What happens to the "out of round parts" Crown RC??? Sound familier, kinda like "low bid".

Silvereagle29 · 03-12-2003, 02:05 AM

Opinion
The "Germany" stamp or "Made in Germany" was a required United States Customs import mark requirement until some time in the 1950's. Remember "made in Japan" and "Occupied Japan". The Japanese occupation ended in 1951. I have never seen any import stamps after that date. help me out guys, maybe I'm missing something. .

Dwight Gruber · 03-12-2003, 02:09 AM

Robert and Al,

If this is an inter-war (Weimar) commercial, any number of things might have been done to it. I'd start by looking for a Crown/N proof on the left side of the receiver. From the look of things it appears that this Luger has ben reblued. Is there any evidence, such as a difference in the finish or a non-straightness or "dished" appearance, that the proof marks have been removed from the right side of the receiver?

--Dwight

Robert Markley · 03-12-2003, 10:02 AM

The 1912 ERFURT in question has 4 proof marks on the right side of the frame plus a smaller mark above and behind the trigger. Apparently typical German military marking. Additional marks are found on the trigger plate(1), each toggle link(1) (along with a crown/RC), tale down lever(1), trigger(1), extractor(1) and magazine release(1). Proof marks are also found on the inside of each grip panel along with the last two digits of the serial number. The barrel has a military proof along with what appears to be a script "A". Each grip screw also has an unidentifible mark. The last two digits of the serial number appear in all the expected places. What do I have?

Lugerdoc · 03-12-2003, 10:21 AM

Robert, It would appear that your have a 1912 Erfurt PO8, as issued to the German military and stamped "Germany" after WW1 for export to the US. Tom H.

kidvett · 03-12-2003, 06:10 PM

Hello AGE,

For a complete set of PICS of that specific 1920 Commercial ( Crown N Proofs ) see the NO EXPORT...post in the commercial section

kidvett

03-11-2003, 10:09 AM	#1
Robert Markley User Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 6 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Export Marking? My 1912 ERFURT Luger is marked "GERMANY" vertically behind the safety lever. This is in addition to the normal "GESICHERT" marking but in smaller characters. The toggel is marked with a crown over RC in addition to other normal military proof marks. I think this indicates an arsenal rework. Can anyone explain the purpose marking? Possibly an export marking? Thanks to all for their help in educating this "newbie wannabe" collector

03-12-2003, 12:44 AM	#6
AGE User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 597 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Kidvett, I don't see any proof marks on that gun. Don't commercial guns have proofs? Does it have a date stamp? __________________ Al Eggers (AGE) NRA Life Member

03-12-2003, 10:21 AM	#11
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 737 Times in 484 Posts	Robert, It would appear that your have a 1912 Erfurt PO8, as issued to the German military and stamped "Germany" after WW1 for export to the US. Tom H. __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

03-11-2003, 10:22 AM	#2
Aaron Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Vista, CA Posts: 1,008 Thanks: 0 Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts	If you will click on the "Old Owner's Corner" on the left, you will find my 1914 DWM pictured under the name "Aaron." This shows the Germany stamp located in the same place as the one on your 1912 Erfurt. These are ordinary battlefield pistols which the Germans exported to the US to earn some much needed dollars. I imagine that the better specimens were so marked and exported.

03-11-2003, 10:24 AM	#3
kidvett User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Montreal, Quebec Posts: 584 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Hi Robert, The RC Proof indicates a review ( Arsenal Rework ) by the Revision Commission. You sholud find this small proof elsewhere on your pistol ( right receiver, front of trigger guard...). As for the GERMANY stamp, I have seen it mostly on commercial models ( like a 1920 ) but not on a military piece...I'd be curious to see it. Can you post some PICS?? It would help on the ID... kidvett

03-11-2003, 10:28 AM	#4
kidvett User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Montreal, Quebec Posts: 584 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Sorry I forgot, Yes the GERMANY stamp was for Export sales. For example; 1920 Comm. without GERMANY stamp for commercial sales within Germany/ 1920 Comm. ( same pistol & configuration ) with GERMANY stamp for sales outside Germany... kidvett

03-12-2003, 12:20 AM	#5
kidvett User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Montreal, Quebec Posts: 584 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Robert, Here's a small PIC of a 1920 Commercial made for sale within Germany as there is no Export stamp on the pistol. kidvett

03-12-2003, 01:53 AM	#7
Silvereagle29 User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Washington State Posts: 105 Thanks: 0 Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts	I wonder. RE: Crown over RC. According to the Gortz and Bryans book on "Small Arms Markings" the Crown over RC (Revisions Kommission) indicates the size of an individual part was not according to design. However, the part functioned normally. Once the pistol was assembled and functioned normally with the Crown RC stamp of approval on the individual part/parts (no rework) The pistol left the Erfurt factory. Mostly found on Erfurt Imperial Lugers. Just a thought - DWM had a commercial sales division, Erfurt didn't. When DWM parts were rejected they went to Commercial Sales (no Government standards, if it shoot, sell it) . No need for a Crown over RC. Erfurt had no Commercial sales division and was a Government owned facility (to my knowledge). What happens to the "out of round parts" Crown RC??? Sound familier, kinda like "low bid".

03-12-2003, 02:05 AM	#8
Silvereagle29 User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Washington State Posts: 105 Thanks: 0 Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts	Opinion The "Germany" stamp or "Made in Germany" was a required United States Customs import mark requirement until some time in the 1950's. Remember "made in Japan" and "Occupied Japan". The Japanese occupation ended in 1951. I have never seen any import stamps after that date. help me out guys, maybe I'm missing something. .

03-12-2003, 02:09 AM	#9
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,908 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,330 Times in 435 Posts	Robert and Al, If this is an inter-war (Weimar) commercial, any number of things might have been done to it. I'd start by looking for a Crown/N proof on the left side of the receiver. From the look of things it appears that this Luger has ben reblued. Is there any evidence, such as a difference in the finish or a non-straightness or "dished" appearance, that the proof marks have been removed from the right side of the receiver? --Dwight

03-12-2003, 10:02 AM	#10
Robert Markley User Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 6 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	The 1912 ERFURT in question has 4 proof marks on the right side of the frame plus a smaller mark above and behind the trigger. Apparently typical German military marking. Additional marks are found on the trigger plate(1), each toggle link(1) (along with a crown/RC), tale down lever(1), trigger(1), extractor(1) and magazine release(1). Proof marks are also found on the inside of each grip panel along with the last two digits of the serial number. The barrel has a military proof along with what appears to be a script "A". Each grip screw also has an unidentifible mark. The last two digits of the serial number appear in all the expected places. What do I have?

03-12-2003, 06:10 PM	#12
kidvett User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Montreal, Quebec Posts: 584 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Hello AGE, For a complete set of PICS of that specific 1920 Commercial ( Crown N Proofs ) see the NO EXPORT...post in the commercial section kidvett