Ku BYF 41 Dated Luger

[RAHamilton]

Gentlemen:

I am new to this board and really appreciate the wealth of information available to all Luger enthusiasts. I have been a "closet" collector of Lugers for some time, but know very little about them. One that I have, which I acquired several years ago is a BYF 41 dated Ku prefix Luger. I will try to describe it for your comments as best I can. I've been experimenting with my digital camera, but am unable to get enough detail and quality to post them.

The left side of the barrel and right side of the receiver bear the Luftwaffe proof mark, that appears to be a DE with an A in the center. No other proof or identification marks are present. It bears the SN-- Ku 4216 and all external and internal parts match. The only other unique feature of the numbers is the fact that the side plate bears the last two digits (16) and underneath is a smaller s/42.

It appears to be all original with the exception of the magazine, which is an unnumbered FXO E37 with a blue body and aluminum center pinned bottom.

I have read Jan Still's book "Third Reich Lugers" and mine fits nicely with the examples he shows on pages 97-104. I have no idea of it's present value and will try to download some pictures for those of you that are much more knowledgable than I in the near future.

If the moderator of the forum reads this message, I would like to change my user name as I mispelled it when it was submitted. Instead of RAHamiliton, it should be RAHamilton, with no second "i" in the name. Please let me know what I need to do to correct my inadvertant error?

Finally, thanks to all of you and I look forward to gaining greater knowledge in my pursuit of this fabulous weapon!

Best Regards,
Bob Hamilton

[Edward Tinker]

Bob, you can't change your login name, but you can always change your "Publically Displayed" name. Go to the top right of the forum, click on profile, then modify profile and then change it to what you'd like.

WELCOME to the forum!! <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />

Ed

[RAHamilton]

Thanks Ed, I've updated my "publically displayed" name, as well as, my password.

Best Regards,
Bob

[G.W. Gill]

Hi Bob, There are is much KU discussion on this board. And in the search section. Feel free to peruse it and ask questions. As my library is limited , many others know thier stuff. My wife bought me the scanners and camera and I can't figure out how to work the stuff. Just jump in...

[Henry Bucki]

Thats where having children come in handy they know how to work cameras and computers, and even put lugers back together for their old man.

[Edward Tinker]

Henry, I got lucky, the army forced this mid-range old guy to learn that stuff, but you are right, our kids grew up with this stuff, we had to learn it!

I can help post pictures for people if need be, gives me the first look at your cool item and can help out a brother or sister collector~~~ {{although once you learn how, unless you have the toma gene, it is easy!!}}

Ed

[John Sabato]

I guess what most of these guys have been trying to say, but the right words have eluded them is WELCOME to the Lugerforum Bob Hamilton!

[G.W. Gill]

John was right. Welcome Bob, We are all glad to have you. Ask any questions you have. Welcome aboard!

[RAHamilton]

Thanks for the welcome guys! I've been experimenting with my digital camera and think I've figured out how to get fairly good pictures that will give all of you enough detail to be able to give me some feedback. I will be out of town this week, but will try again next weekend with some pictures. Thanks again, and I look forward to your comments.

Best Regards,
Bob

<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/byf41ku1.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/byf41ku1.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>
<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/byf41ku2.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/byf41ku2.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>
<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/byf41ku3.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/byf41ku3.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/byf41ku4.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/byf41ku4.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>
<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/byf41ku5.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/byf41ku5.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>
<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/byf41ku6.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/byf41ku6.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/byf41ku7.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/byf41ku7.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>
<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/byf41ku8.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/byf41ku8.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

[Edward Tinker]

pictures posted for Bob;

Ed

<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/byf41ku9.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/byf41ku9.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>
<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/byf41ku10.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/byf41ku10.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

[John D.]

Hi Bob,

Let me add my welcome as well..!

OK, for your K�¼ - I believe that stamp you refer to is called the LA proof. If you look closely, I think what you will see is a drop-winged Eagle, and the "left wing" (on your "left" as you look at it) will have 3 lines, while the right will have 2. The 3rd, inside line of the left wing will probably shape an "L", with the "L" extending under the "A"? If so - yes, that is correct....

As well - the MAG you have appears to be a proper MAG, with the FXO - E37, and you should see the "P.08" on the right of that same side? These are Haenel MAGS - and the aluminium bases are correct either proofed with the LA/serial number/suffix, or unmarked, as yours appears to be...

BTW - great pics!!! If you get a moment, if you can post a picture of the LA, MAG, MAG base, etc - and we can go from there..?

Best to you!

John

[RAHamilton]

John:

Thanks for your observations and information regarding the LA proof and the Haenel Magazine. I looked closely at the proof marks and the one on the receiver is exactly as you describe; a droop winged eagle with three lines on the left and two on the right. The inner line of the three does extend under the "A" as you described. The one on the barrel is a little less pronounced, but does appear to be identical, even though the stamp is not as deep and therefore not as well defined.

The Magazine is exactly as you describe also. It has the FXO and E37 (left side of mag button) on the body and PO8 on the same side, but right of the button. The base is totally without any markings whatsoever.

John, if one assumes that everything is correct and the Ku is original with all matching numbers, do you have any idea of a current value range? I'm curious as I purchased this Luger many years ago at what I thought was a pretty good price.

Finally, I will take some additonal pictures of the LA proof and Magazine in the next few days. I have to wait until the sun is shining, as I seem to get much better results under natural lighting conditions.

Ed has been gracious enough to assist me with the posting of the pictures and I wanted to thank him here on the forum for his time and assistance.

Thanks again John for your insights. This information helps me in my slow but steady learning process.

Best Regards,
Bob Hamilton

[John D.]

Hi Bob,

It would be thrilled to see some more photos - and I know I'm not alone..!!!

On the pricing - I hate to give estimates without seeing something in person, and given that it still needs to be verified as everything matches.

I also hope others post back what they see as prices, too - as I sort of watch K�¼'s from the sidelines, rather then being my primary area (OK - is that enough disclaimers!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> )

I saw a 41 go at a local gun store for $2050 not too long ago - I think it was originally tagged at $2395, but sat for a bit. I also noticed one on a dealers website about 4 months ago - and they were in the same range. As I recall, the 41/BYF had the highest production estimate of the K�¼ (I'll try to find the reference, but - I believe it is Mr. Still Third Reich Lugers) with just under an estimated 3,000 total.

Again though - this is only a price estimate, based on only a few sources as I recall....

Hope this helps!!

[John D.]

Hi Bob..!

I found the reference to the K�¼ production. Please refer to Mr. Still - Third Reich Lugers - Page 97 where estimated production is 2700 units.

Best to you!

John

[Pete Ebbink]

Does the color of the extractor seem odd to anyone...? Cannot tell it if was "plum" or it it had gotten "strawed" at some point in time...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

[John D.]

Hi Pete,

I noticed that too - but - I think it's a bright plum, and in the direct sunlight, I think it "enhances" that color with the metal reflecting through the "blue"?

Bob - is this correct???

Best to you Pete (and Bob!)

[RAHamilton]

Hello All:

The extractor is a definitely more of a plum, but somewhat rust colored variation. I'm not sure exactly sure how to describe it to you, but the photograph does make it appear a little more golden color than it really is.

I read in Jan Still's book,"Third Reich Lugers", that the Ku's were made by Mauser, probably for the Luftwaffe, from left over or missized parts. This may be one possible explanation for the strawed/plum colored extractor, but that is anyone's guess. It does bear the correct last 2 digits of the serial number. I guess it just adds to the character of this particular Ku.

I really appreciate the comments from everyone and I will try to add some additional photographs showing the LA proof and magazine.

John, thanks so much for the value estimates and I realize it is only a guesstimate or ballpark figure without having the opportunity to see the piece firsthand. It does, however, give me some idea as to what its potential value range may be.

I can't state enough how much I enjoy reading everyone's comments regarding the many items contained on this forum. You're not only enhancing my knowledge base, but given me a renewed interest in Luger collecting.

Best Regards,
Bob Hamilton

[Vlim]

Hi,

The problem with Ku marked lugers is that there is still no verified explanation for their existance. Although many theories have been discussed and some of them are plausible there is still no written evidence on them, other than Krieghoff denying involvement in them.

If Mauser had assembled them according to their own specifications, they would not have added an extra 'Ku' mark, since it doesn't serve any real purpose (and Mauser had other 'rework' marks in use).

Most likely is that a (small) subcontractor reworked production or army rejects and added it's own Ku mark so that problems with the gun during use would point to them, rather than to the original manufacturer. A bit along the same lines as the 'Kl' reworks that show up once and again.

Who or what Ku was, is still a mystery.

[Roadkill]

G. van
Vlimmeren

What does the word "Kummerle" ( u with unlaut) mean to you? I take it to mean "leftovers" or extra parts. I had provided this observation a year or so ago but it was not generally accepted.
My opinion was based on the fact that the u w/umlaut is a pronunication instead of a block series number.
rk

[Vlim]

Hi RK,

Well, that would roughly translate as 'poor' or 'troublesome'. Not a mark I would like on my Luger <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

The problem with U/umlaut is indeed that it's difficult to match a German phrase with it, that also makes sense in common German gunsmithing.

That is why I prefer the theory that a small group or company designated as 'Ku' reworked some rejects or leftovers as it fits in line with the 'Kl' lugers that appear to point to a small reworking firm as well.

(I won't even start to discuss the 'kustenfliegerstaffeln' )

I am looking into another interesting link. One of the few arms companies that fits the 'KU' description is a royal hungarian plant (or Konichlich Ungarnische Eisen- Stahl- und) Maschinenfabrik).

The Hungarians were quite active in 1941-1942 when they allied with the Germans and as a result their airforce was placed under German Luftwaffe command in 1942.

Now for the serious speculation part:
So there suddenly appears a 'new' airforce part that needs to be armed while Krieghoff can hardly supply the German Airforce alone. Imagine that P08 leftovers and rejects from Mauser are shipped to Hungaria where they are overhauled by the Konichlich Ungarian E.S.M. factory, who already were producing ammo on DWM-supplied machinery.

Since these weapons were all Mauser-numbered and coded, some code had to be added to link the overhauled guns to the Hungarian plant, after which they were accepted by the Hungarian airforce (under German control, so with Luftwaffe acceptance stamps).

This may also explain the unknown Mauser deliveries in 1942

Nice theory, eh?