Pb without number or stamps

Jussi · 09-21-2003, 03:23 PM

Hi! I hope you undestand my text, my English is not very good.
Well, I have a Parabellum without any kind of numbers or other marks. My grandfather have got this gun 1915 or 1916 when he was a member in underground network trying to separate Finland from russia. Thanks to God they managed to do it. Germany supported them but officially Germany was impartial.

A agent who had come from germany had two Parabellum and my grandfather got one.

Numbers and stamps have not took away from this gun by welding or drilling or other way, there have never been numbers at all.

I paste pictures here if I manage to do it.

What do you think about this gun? s Parabellum like this unique? I Don`tknow what type of Parabellum this is. What are you thinking about the value of this gun?

http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Jussi2.JPG

Thank you for your response

http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Jussi3.JPG

Edward Tinker · 09-21-2003, 03:43 PM

Welcome to the forum Jussi!

There are NO acceptance stamps, or serial numbers on ANY parts? Not even internals?

How odd.

Since Finland was fighting against the Russians, it might have been special order, but I am sure there would have been more than just one received by the underground and not just this one if special ordered?

Your English is just fine, I helped on a word, and made the pictures show, I just think it makes it easier to "see" everything.

Ed

Jussi · 09-21-2003, 04:28 PM

Hi Ed!

Thanks for help.

Yes, there are not any kind of stamps or numbers anywhere in this gun. Not even internals.

Finland was a part of Russia and there was a secret organisation who prepared civilwar. There was not war against Finland and Russia. War became later. Not a bunch of Parabellums have been because only rare agents can carry thinks in their backpacks. Later they carry weapons by ships but those guns have numbers.

I have asked about Parabellums in a finnish gun forum and one guy sayed that he have heart about a Parabellum like that.

Jussi

09-21-2003, 04:48 PM

..

Ron Wood · 09-21-2003, 05:07 PM

tac,
How can you tell?

John Sabato · 09-22-2003, 12:58 PM

Tac! This is not a grip safety model so how can you tell there is no Gesichert under the safety lever?

Color me very curious...

John Sabato · 09-22-2003, 01:11 PM

And here I thought you had X-ray eyes!

John Sabato · 09-22-2003, 01:33 PM

Jussi,

Could you please show us better photographs of the top of the gun (receiver and toggle) and also the areas where the serial number should normally appear on a Luger?

The photos you have already posted are not quite clear enough in these areas... and the rear toggle appears to have two digits of a serial number on it. A closeup of the front of the frame would be helpful in identification of your Luger.

see these enlargements of your photos regarding the rear toggle number..

Jussi · 09-22-2003, 02:39 PM

Ofcourse John, I try to send better photos. This two litle things are litle damages.

You are talking about "Gesichert" what is it?

I can`t avoid temptation, i send a photo from my Mauser too ( with all numbers and stamps ) Notice a hole on wooden holster made by bullet.

Jussi

John Sabato · 09-22-2003, 03:08 PM

Jussi,

Gesichert is the German word for SAFE that is normally found underneath the safety lever and is exposed to view when the firearm safety is engaged.

This is a very interesting firearm... There is no apparent evidence that any marks were removed...

Thank you for sharing photographs of your Luger and your Mauser C-96

Ron Wood · 09-22-2003, 03:41 PM

Jussi,
Nice photographs. Because of the relieved sear bar, I believe we can safely narrow down the year your grandfather obtained this Luger to no earlier than 1916.

Frank · 09-22-2003, 04:19 PM

Hi Guys, just some speculation. Could it be possible that these two Lugers were sales samples? Put together at the DWM Factory for show and tell? Then they may not have been in an inventory situation and thus un-numbered.

In any case a very interesting pistol!!!

RockinWR · 09-22-2003, 07:40 PM

* Judging from Jussi's story of his grandfather's association with the underground and the "Agent" from whom he acquired this piece, I'd suggest a "Lunch Box" gun was more likely. You know of Lunch Box guns....parts spirited out of the Factory one or two at a time in a "lunch box" until all were acquired to assemble a full pistol.
* An alternative constructive speculation would be an "Armorer's Box" assembly.
* Using Gibson's TKP as a reference, this piece appears to have the machining and grip curvature characteristics of a DWM. If any Worker's stamps appear on the inside(Front well, rear well, left grip frame, receiver/toggle undersides, etc.), they might be compared to a known 1916 DWM for confirmation.
* Interesting gun. This "phantom" probably shoots one hole groups too!
Respectfully,
Bob

Hugh · 09-23-2003, 12:37 AM

<img border="0" alt="[bigbye]" title="" src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" /> ALL--- please note that steamed Tacfoley does indeed have xray vision!!!! <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />

Dwight Gruber · 09-23-2003, 12:38 AM

Close examination (and a bit of image processing)reveals that there may be a witness mark across the barrel and receiver.

Jussi, would it be possible for you to take the gun apart and photograph the bottom of the receiver for us? It may be a tantalizing addition to the witness mark and the Luger assembly mystery.

Bob (Rockin'WR) has a good point about workers stamps, if you find any under the receiver or in the receiver well (or anyplace else) it would be good to know. This is a very unique and interesting Luger you have.

And it does seem that Steamed TACFoley does, indeed, have X-ray vision!

--Dwight

John Sabato · 09-23-2003, 11:43 AM

Nice "scrub" on the photo Dwight... I agree that there appears to be a witness mark there... Photo forensics is a pretty neat pastime...

Jussi · 09-23-2003, 02:14 PM

Hi Guys! Of course I send photos you need.

Bob, Agents was german army solders. I do not believe that they needed to use "lunch box" firearms. About agents (maybe it`s a wrong word but I don`t know better) and their missions can I read from history books here, it is not story it is history. Maybe German army had firearms like that for their secret missions.

<a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Jussi_21.JPG" target="_fullview"><img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Jussi_21.JPG" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

<a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Jussi_22.JPG" target="_fullview"><img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Jussi_22.JPG" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

<a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Jussi_23.JPG" target="_fullview"><img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Jussi_23.JPG" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

<a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Jussi_24.JPG" target="_fullview"><img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Jussi_24.JPG" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

<a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Jussi_25.JPG" target="_fullview"><img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Jussi_25.JPG" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

<a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Jussi_26.JPG" target="_fullview"><img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Jussi_26.JPG" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

<a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Jussi_27.JPG" target="_fullview"><img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Jussi_27.JPG" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

<a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Jussi_28.JPG" target="_fullview"><img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Jussi_28.JPG" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

Jussi

John Sabato · 09-23-2003, 02:40 PM

Jussi,

How about a sharp focus closeup of this area of the frame?

This pistol gets more interesting all the time!

Thanks for the additional photographs...

Jussi · 09-23-2003, 03:30 PM

Hi John!

I hope these photos are sharp enough.

<a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Jussi_31.JPG" target="_fullview"><img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Jussi_31.JPG" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

<a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Jussi_32.JPG" target="_fullview"><img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Jussi_32.JPG" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

<a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Jussi_33.JPG" target="_fullview"><img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Jussi_33.JPG" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

(photos thumbnailed for display by Admin-JS)

Jussi

John Sabato · 09-23-2003, 05:25 PM

thanks Jussi,... that's great photography.

09-21-2003, 03:23 PM	#1
Jussi User Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Finland Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Pb without number or stamps Hi! I hope you undestand my text, my English is not very good. Well, I have a Parabellum without any kind of numbers or other marks. My grandfather have got this gun 1915 or 1916 when he was a member in underground network trying to separate Finland from russia. Thanks to God they managed to do it. Germany supported them but officially Germany was impartial. A agent who had come from germany had two Parabellum and my grandfather got one. Numbers and stamps have not took away from this gun by welding or drilling or other way, there have never been numbers at all. I paste pictures here if I manage to do it. What do you think about this gun? s Parabellum like this unique? I Don`tknow what type of Parabellum this is. What are you thinking about the value of this gun? http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Jussi2.JPG Thank you for your response http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Jussi3.JPG

09-21-2003, 03:43 PM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,966 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,595 Times in 2,116 Posts	Welcome to the forum Jussi! There are NO acceptance stamps, or serial numbers on ANY parts? Not even internals? How odd. Since Finland was fighting against the Russians, it might have been special order, but I am sure there would have been more than just one received by the underground and not just this one if special ordered? Your English is just fine, I helped on a word, and made the pictures show, I just think it makes it easier to "see" everything. Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

09-21-2003, 04:48 PM	#4
tacfoley Guest Posts: n/a	.. Last edited by tacfoley; 02-18-2009 at 02:30 PM.

09-21-2003, 05:07 PM	#5
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,040 Thanks: 1,106 Thanked 5,257 Times in 1,724 Posts	tac, How can you tell? __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

09-22-2003, 12:58 PM	#6
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	Tac! This is not a grip safety model so how can you tell there is no Gesichert under the safety lever? Color me very curious... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

09-21-2003, 04:28 PM	#3
Jussi User Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Finland Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hi Ed! Thanks for help. Yes, there are not any kind of stamps or numbers anywhere in this gun. Not even internals. Finland was a part of Russia and there was a secret organisation who prepared civilwar. There was not war against Finland and Russia. War became later. Not a bunch of Parabellums have been because only rare agents can carry thinks in their backpacks. Later they carry weapons by ships but those guns have numbers. I have asked about Parabellums in a finnish gun forum and one guy sayed that he have heart about a Parabellum like that. Jussi

09-22-2003, 01:11 PM	#7
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	And here I thought you had X-ray eyes! __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

09-22-2003, 01:33 PM	#8
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	Jussi, Could you please show us better photographs of the top of the gun (receiver and toggle) and also the areas where the serial number should normally appear on a Luger? The photos you have already posted are not quite clear enough in these areas... and the rear toggle appears to have two digits of a serial number on it. A closeup of the front of the frame would be helpful in identification of your Luger. see these enlargements of your photos regarding the rear toggle number.. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

09-22-2003, 02:39 PM	#9
Jussi User Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Finland Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Ofcourse John, I try to send better photos. This two litle things are litle damages. You are talking about "Gesichert" what is it? I can`t avoid temptation, i send a photo from my Mauser too ( with all numbers and stamps ) Notice a hole on wooden holster made by bullet. Jussi

09-22-2003, 03:08 PM	#10
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	Jussi, Gesichert is the German word for SAFE that is normally found underneath the safety lever and is exposed to view when the firearm safety is engaged. This is a very interesting firearm... There is no apparent evidence that any marks were removed... Thank you for sharing photographs of your Luger and your Mauser C-96 __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

09-22-2003, 03:41 PM	#11
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,040 Thanks: 1,106 Thanked 5,257 Times in 1,724 Posts	Jussi, Nice photographs. Because of the relieved sear bar, I believe we can safely narrow down the year your grandfather obtained this Luger to no earlier than 1916. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

09-22-2003, 04:19 PM	#12
Frank RIP Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hot & Dry PHX, AZ Posts: 2,078 Thanks: 24 Thanked 164 Times in 87 Posts	Hi Guys, just some speculation. Could it be possible that these two Lugers were sales samples? Put together at the DWM Factory for show and tell? Then they may not have been in an inventory situation and thus un-numbered. In any case a very interesting pistol!!!

09-22-2003, 07:40 PM	#13
RockinWR User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: D/FW, Tx Posts: 279 Thanks: 109 Thanked 31 Times in 16 Posts	* Judging from Jussi's story of his grandfather's association with the underground and the "Agent" from whom he acquired this piece, I'd suggest a "Lunch Box" gun was more likely. You know of Lunch Box guns....parts spirited out of the Factory one or two at a time in a "lunch box" until all were acquired to assemble a full pistol. * An alternative constructive speculation would be an "Armorer's Box" assembly. * Using Gibson's TKP as a reference, this piece appears to have the machining and grip curvature characteristics of a DWM. If any Worker's stamps appear on the inside(Front well, rear well, left grip frame, receiver/toggle undersides, etc.), they might be compared to a known 1916 DWM for confirmation. * Interesting gun. This "phantom" probably shoots one hole groups too! Respectfully, Bob

09-23-2003, 12:37 AM	#14
Hugh RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Southeast Texas Swamp Posts: 2,460 Thanks: 2 Thanked 166 Times in 65 Posts	<img border="0" alt="[bigbye]" title="" src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" /> ALL--- please note that steamed Tacfoley does indeed have xray vision!!!! <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" /> __________________ *TRUMP FOR PREZ IN '20!*

09-23-2003, 12:38 AM	#15
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,908 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,330 Times in 435 Posts	Close examination (and a bit of image processing)reveals that there may be a witness mark across the barrel and receiver. Jussi, would it be possible for you to take the gun apart and photograph the bottom of the receiver for us? It may be a tantalizing addition to the witness mark and the Luger assembly mystery. Bob (Rockin'WR) has a good point about workers stamps, if you find any under the receiver or in the receiver well (or anyplace else) it would be good to know. This is a very unique and interesting Luger you have. And it does seem that Steamed TACFoley does, indeed, have X-ray vision! --Dwight

09-23-2003, 11:43 AM	#16
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	Nice "scrub" on the photo Dwight... I agree that there appears to be a witness mark there... Photo forensics is a pretty neat pastime... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

09-23-2003, 02:14 PM	#17
Jussi User Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Finland Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hi Guys! Of course I send photos you need. Bob, Agents was german army solders. I do not believe that they needed to use "lunch box" firearms. About agents (maybe it`s a wrong word but I don`t know better) and their missions can I read from history books here, it is not story it is history. Maybe German army had firearms like that for their secret missions. <a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Jussi_21.JPG" target="_fullview"><img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Jussi_21.JPG" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a> <a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Jussi_22.JPG" target="_fullview"><img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Jussi_22.JPG" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a> <a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Jussi_23.JPG" target="_fullview"><img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Jussi_23.JPG" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a> <a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Jussi_24.JPG" target="_fullview"><img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Jussi_24.JPG" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a> <a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Jussi_25.JPG" target="_fullview"><img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Jussi_25.JPG" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a> <a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Jussi_26.JPG" target="_fullview"><img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Jussi_26.JPG" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a> <a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Jussi_27.JPG" target="_fullview"><img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Jussi_27.JPG" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a> <a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Jussi_28.JPG" target="_fullview"><img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Jussi_28.JPG" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a> Jussi

09-23-2003, 02:40 PM	#18
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	Jussi, How about a sharp focus closeup of this area of the frame? This pistol gets more interesting all the time! Thanks for the additional photographs... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

09-23-2003, 03:30 PM	#19
Jussi User Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Finland Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hi John! I hope these photos are sharp enough. <a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Jussi_31.JPG" target="_fullview"><img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Jussi_31.JPG" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a> <a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Jussi_32.JPG" target="_fullview"><img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Jussi_32.JPG" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a> <a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Jussi_33.JPG" target="_fullview"><img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Jussi_33.JPG" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a> (photos thumbnailed for display by Admin-JS) Jussi

09-23-2003, 05:25 PM	#20
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	thanks Jussi,... that's great photography. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*