What is this thing?

913luger · 11-24-2003, 10:08 AM

http://glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=201142

I can't find the files that I used to upload them, but they are on the above thread. Which model is this and what is its value? thank you very much
Jason

John Sabato · 11-24-2003, 10:44 AM

Welcome to the Lugerforum...

You didn't mention the caliber (.30 caliber Luger or 9mm Luger) but Here are your photos adjusted for size and brightened a little... Click on the thumbnail to see the photos full size...

<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/luger_11242003_a.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/luger_11242003_a.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/luger_11242003_b.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/luger_11242003_b.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/luger__11242003_c.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/luger__11242003_c.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

From all appearances, your Luger is a 1917 Commercial pistol (Germany stamped on the front sight base left side?) but marked in the military serial number style... It does appear that the gun may have been refinished at some point after manufacture which would lower its collector value. The toggle although not shown should be marked with the DWM (Deutsche Waffen und Munitions Fabrik) logo.

Without better photographs and a detailed listing of all the stamps on this gun, I can only bracket the value for you to somewhere between $400 and maybe $900... There are detailed identification sheets listed on the General Information pages which you can download and record all the info that would be necessary for a better ID and value guess. Tell us what all the marks are and the guess can be much closer.

The holster is an unusual commercial type which may or may not be of the same period as the pistol. No guess as to the value...

The magazines are the best type available ...the extruded steel FXO type of late WW2 manufacture and are worth $100 or more each.

913luger · 11-24-2003, 12:05 PM

John,
Thank you for your time to upload and lighten the pictures for me. There is another picture(i believe "luger2" is the file name) and it does show the DWM logo and 1917 on the barrel. This is in 9mm and I recieved this from my fiance's greatgrandfather who his father gave it to him, after bringing it back over. Again, thank you for your time and this is a great site with alot of friendly people on it.

John Sabato · 11-24-2003, 12:51 PM

Here's your last photo that I overlooked on the first run...

<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/luger_11242003_d.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/luger_11242003_d.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

Now that I have seen this one... I am pretty certain that you gun was reblued... but it is still a very nice piece...

Ron Wood · 11-24-2003, 03:07 PM

I am not sure it has been reblued. To me it looks like a late war rough finish that has turned grey due to storage conditions. Tough to tell from photos sometimes. The contours are all sharp, there are a lot of halos showing on some of the stampings and the toggle link axle retaining pin is still in the white. Might help to have a photo of the forward part of the frame and bottom of the barrel.

John Sabato · 11-24-2003, 03:34 PM

Unfortunately Ron, the images were made on a flatbed scanner and an image of the front of the frame is not easy with that equipment... but if Jason can provide that image, it would certainly help make an informed decision on the finish of the pistol... As always...Thanks for your input on these early guns.

913luger · 11-24-2003, 07:20 PM

I will attempt to borrow a digital camer tomorrow, and hopefully get those uploaded. Thanks again John for the photo work. Thanks to everyone else for looking.
Jason

saxman · 11-24-2003, 07:57 PM

I don't see that it's a commercial at all. Looks like a righteous Imperial to me. Did you see his pic with the proof marks? That small mark on the sight base could be lettering, but really just looks like a machining mark. So, 913luger - is 'GERMANY' stamped on the left side of the sight base or not?

Doubs · 11-25-2003, 01:19 AM

I agree with Ron. IMO, it doesn't appear to have been refinished. Even before reading the posts following the first pictures I guessed it was a 1917 or 1918 DWM going strictly on the rough finish and the DWM eagle on the right receiver. It seems to be a nice piece and worth preserving just as it is. The holster is interesting too.

913luger · 11-25-2003, 04:41 AM

I have scanned some more images and along with MS photodraw, I have done it. I will add the hyperlinks to them. Thanks to all for the help. Saxman, I don't see "GERMANY" on it anywhere. Hope these pictures work.

Jason

http://home.comcast.net/~spm9981/ima...terupclose.jpg

http://home.comcast.net/~spm9981/ima...erupclose2.jpg

http://home.comcast.net/~spm9981/images/Luger_a.jpg

http://home.comcast.net/~spm9981/images/Luger_b.jpg

http://home.comcast.net/~spm9981/images/Luger_c.jpg

913luger · 11-25-2003, 04:44 AM

and more........

http://home.comcast.net/~spm9981/images/Luger_d.jpg

http://home.comcast.net/~spm9981/images/proofs.jpg

http://home.comcast.net/~spm9981/images/proofs2.jpg

http://home.comcast.net/~spm9981/images/proofs3.jpg

913luger · 11-25-2003, 04:45 AM

last one.

http://home.comcast.net/~spm9981/ima...er_holster.jpg

Ron Wood · 11-25-2003, 08:45 AM

We have a winner. A very nice original DWM military. Congratulations.

913luger · 11-25-2003, 07:31 PM

Thanks to everyone.

Lugerdoc · 11-26-2003, 09:25 AM

To Jason et al, Did anyone else notice that the rear of the receiver appears to have been "built up" higher than normal, causing the toggle assy to be in an "unlocked" position. If I'm viewing the first two photos correctly, this pistol is a straight blow back. The only reasons that I can imagine for that, is a conversion to a lower powered cartridge such as .380 or 22LR. I'd strongly suggest checking the chamber carefully before firing and certainly not with 9mmParabellum ammo. TH

H.P.Langenbach · 11-26-2003, 09:54 AM

Hello Tom,
this was also my impression, when I saw the pics first time. But if you refer to the pics Luger_b and Luger_c posted by Jason, the toggle assy is locked as per my observation. So could it be that the toggle on the first pics was not fully closed due to some reason?
regards
Peter

John Sabato · 11-26-2003, 10:02 AM

Tom, Take a second look at the photos where the owner has posted links you can see the internal components... the first photos at the top of the page were apparently taken with the toggle in a partially unlocked condition... Perhaps the recoil link was not properly in place when the scan was taken.

I am not sure what the limitations of the display are on your webtv device... but I am satisfied that this is a 9mm Luger ( as stated by the owner above) after examining the photos closely...

Especially this photo linked by the owner where you can see the upper receiver removed... it is normal configuration for a 9mm...

Ron Wood · 11-26-2003, 10:40 AM

I think John is right on target that the recoil link was not properly in place. If you let the toggle down slowly, on most Lugers it will stop in an unlocked position. That is where the sear engages the firing pin and there is enough resistance to preclude the mainspring from fully closing the action. However, with this procedure, the toggle does not close as fully as shown in the first photos.

A point of information for first time Luger owners. It is best to store a Luger in an uncocked condition. If you lower the toggle as described letting it stop at this open point, then pull the trigger (ONLY ON AN EMPTY WEAPON!!!), the action will snap shut. That is one way to close the toggle without leaving the firing pin cocked. A better way is to slowly lower the toggle while holding the trigger fully to the rear(Once again, ONLY ON AN EMPTY WEAPON!!!), then the sear never engages the firing pin and it remains uncocked.

913luger · 11-26-2003, 12:14 PM

I took it back apart and noticed that it was locking up. It was put back together and seats fine now. I have some info(on paper) that I can scan and email to anyone that wants it. Just a little info from the orignal(or first american owner) that was with the Luger. Again, I appreciate everyones help on here. Nice to see a forum without all the child play. My email is spm9981@comcast.net if anyone would like a copy of the info. I will put it into zip format.
Jason

11-24-2003, 10:08 AM	#1
913luger User Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Indiana Posts: 11 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	What is this thing? http://glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=201142 I can't find the files that I used to upload them, but they are on the above thread. Which model is this and what is its value? thank you very much Jason

11-24-2003, 10:44 AM	#2
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,155 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	Welcome to the Lugerforum... You didn't mention the caliber (.30 caliber Luger or 9mm Luger) but Here are your photos adjusted for size and brightened a little... Click on the thumbnail to see the photos full size... <a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/luger_11242003_a.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/luger_11242003_a.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a> <a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/luger_11242003_b.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/luger_11242003_b.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a> <a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/luger__11242003_c.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/luger__11242003_c.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a> From all appearances, your Luger is a 1917 Commercial pistol (Germany stamped on the front sight base left side?) but marked in the military serial number style... It does appear that the gun may have been refinished at some point after manufacture which would lower its collector value. The toggle although not shown should be marked with the DWM (Deutsche Waffen und Munitions Fabrik) logo. Without better photographs and a detailed listing of all the stamps on this gun, I can only bracket the value for you to somewhere between $400 and maybe $900... There are detailed identification sheets listed on the General Information pages which you can download and record all the info that would be necessary for a better ID and value guess. Tell us what all the marks are and the guess can be much closer. The holster is an unusual commercial type which may or may not be of the same period as the pistol. No guess as to the value... The magazines are the best type available ...the extruded steel FXO type of late WW2 manufacture and are worth $100 or more each. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

11-24-2003, 12:51 PM	#4
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,155 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	Here's your last photo that I overlooked on the first run... <a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/luger_11242003_d.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/luger_11242003_d.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a> Now that I have seen this one... I am pretty certain that you gun was reblued... but it is still a very nice piece... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

11-24-2003, 03:07 PM	#5
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,035 Thanks: 1,106 Thanked 5,242 Times in 1,719 Posts	I am not sure it has been reblued. To me it looks like a late war rough finish that has turned grey due to storage conditions. Tough to tell from photos sometimes. The contours are all sharp, there are a lot of halos showing on some of the stampings and the toggle link axle retaining pin is still in the white. Might help to have a photo of the forward part of the frame and bottom of the barrel. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

11-24-2003, 03:34 PM	#6
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,155 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	Unfortunately Ron, the images were made on a flatbed scanner and an image of the front of the frame is not easy with that equipment... but if Jason can provide that image, it would certainly help make an informed decision on the finish of the pistol... As always...Thanks for your input on these early guns. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

11-24-2003, 12:05 PM	#3
913luger User Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Indiana Posts: 11 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	John, Thank you for your time to upload and lighten the pictures for me. There is another picture(i believe "luger2" is the file name) and it does show the DWM logo and 1917 on the barrel. This is in 9mm and I recieved this from my fiance's greatgrandfather who his father gave it to him, after bringing it back over. Again, thank you for your time and this is a great site with alot of friendly people on it.

11-24-2003, 07:20 PM	#7
913luger User Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Indiana Posts: 11 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I will attempt to borrow a digital camer tomorrow, and hopefully get those uploaded. Thanks again John for the photo work. Thanks to everyone else for looking. Jason

11-24-2003, 07:57 PM	#8
saxman User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 301 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I don't see that it's a commercial at all. Looks like a righteous Imperial to me. Did you see his pic with the proof marks? That small mark on the sight base could be lettering, but really just looks like a machining mark. So, 913luger - is 'GERMANY' stamped on the left side of the sight base or not? __________________ You can lead 'em to the water, but you can't make 'em drink.

11-25-2003, 01:19 AM	#9
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,735 Thanks: 819 Thanked 1,767 Times in 584 Posts	I agree with Ron. IMO, it doesn't appear to have been refinished. Even before reading the posts following the first pictures I guessed it was a 1917 or 1918 DWM going strictly on the rough finish and the DWM eagle on the right receiver. It seems to be a nice piece and worth preserving just as it is. The holster is interesting too.

11-25-2003, 04:41 AM	#10
913luger User Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Indiana Posts: 11 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I have scanned some more images and along with MS photodraw, I have done it. I will add the hyperlinks to them. Thanks to all for the help. Saxman, I don't see "GERMANY" on it anywhere. Hope these pictures work. Jason http://home.comcast.net/~spm9981/ima...terupclose.jpg http://home.comcast.net/~spm9981/ima...erupclose2.jpg http://home.comcast.net/~spm9981/images/Luger_a.jpg http://home.comcast.net/~spm9981/images/Luger_b.jpg http://home.comcast.net/~spm9981/images/Luger_c.jpg

11-25-2003, 04:44 AM	#11
913luger User Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Indiana Posts: 11 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	and more........ http://home.comcast.net/~spm9981/images/Luger_d.jpg http://home.comcast.net/~spm9981/images/proofs.jpg http://home.comcast.net/~spm9981/images/proofs2.jpg http://home.comcast.net/~spm9981/images/proofs3.jpg

11-25-2003, 04:45 AM	#12
913luger User Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Indiana Posts: 11 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	last one. http://home.comcast.net/~spm9981/ima...er_holster.jpg

11-25-2003, 08:45 AM	#13
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,035 Thanks: 1,106 Thanked 5,242 Times in 1,719 Posts	We have a winner. A very nice original DWM military. Congratulations. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

11-25-2003, 07:31 PM	#14
913luger User Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Indiana Posts: 11 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks to everyone.

11-26-2003, 09:25 AM	#15
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 737 Times in 484 Posts	To Jason et al, Did anyone else notice that the rear of the receiver appears to have been "built up" higher than normal, causing the toggle assy to be in an "unlocked" position. If I'm viewing the first two photos correctly, this pistol is a straight blow back. The only reasons that I can imagine for that, is a conversion to a lower powered cartridge such as .380 or 22LR. I'd strongly suggest checking the chamber carefully before firing and certainly not with 9mmParabellum ammo. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

11-26-2003, 09:54 AM	#16
H.P.Langenbach User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Germany Posts: 35 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hello Tom, this was also my impression, when I saw the pics first time. But if you refer to the pics Luger_b and Luger_c posted by Jason, the toggle assy is locked as per my observation. So could it be that the toggle on the first pics was not fully closed due to some reason? regards Peter

11-26-2003, 10:02 AM	#17
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,155 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	Tom, Take a second look at the photos where the owner has posted links you can see the internal components... the first photos at the top of the page were apparently taken with the toggle in a partially unlocked condition... Perhaps the recoil link was not properly in place when the scan was taken. I am not sure what the limitations of the display are on your webtv device... but I am satisfied that this is a 9mm Luger ( as stated by the owner above) after examining the photos closely... Especially this photo linked by the owner where you can see the upper receiver removed... it is normal configuration for a 9mm... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

11-26-2003, 10:40 AM	#18
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,035 Thanks: 1,106 Thanked 5,242 Times in 1,719 Posts	I think John is right on target that the recoil link was not properly in place. If you let the toggle down slowly, on most Lugers it will stop in an unlocked position. That is where the sear engages the firing pin and there is enough resistance to preclude the mainspring from fully closing the action. However, with this procedure, the toggle does not close as fully as shown in the first photos. A point of information for first time Luger owners. It is best to store a Luger in an uncocked condition. If you lower the toggle as described letting it stop at this open point, then pull the trigger (ONLY ON AN EMPTY WEAPON!!!), the action will snap shut. That is one way to close the toggle without leaving the firing pin cocked. A better way is to slowly lower the toggle while holding the trigger fully to the rear(Once again, ONLY ON AN EMPTY WEAPON!!!), then the sear never engages the firing pin and it remains uncocked. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

11-26-2003, 12:14 PM	#19
913luger User Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Indiana Posts: 11 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I took it back apart and noticed that it was locking up. It was put back together and seats fine now. I have some info(on paper) that I can scan and email to anyone that wants it. Just a little info from the orignal(or first american owner) that was with the Luger. Again, I appreciate everyones help on here. Nice to see a forum without all the child play. My email is spm9981@comcast.net if anyone would like a copy of the info. I will put it into zip format. Jason