.45 ACP Broomhandle/Shanxi Type 17

[TheRomanhistorian]

Hello all,

So, as promised, here are some photos. I did not take down the gun yet but it's a beautiful and heavy gun and I think it may confusingly (to me) have some features of 'new' production and perhaps 'old' if I follow some of the indications in the previous thread. Yet, there are odd things like: There's a tiny marking behind the trigger guard that indicates Navy Arms import and the grip screw is on the left but the interior looks like it was milled.

However, the' lettering' is 'square' and blocky for the date (18th year of the Republic) though it's not as square as in the other example in another thread where Alvin posted a photo. It seems in between the curved and blocky. I've also thought it is odd that the serial number is so low, 504 for the majority of the gun though the hammer and a few other parts are mismatched (the hammer, for example, is 1989).

I wonder if it was, if original, reblued for import to extract maximum price? Not great photos, I know, trying to figure out these new fangled phones (I think I missed out by waiting so long to get a camera on my phone).

Michael

[sheepherder]

Do it go bang?

[TheRomanhistorian]

Rich, how did I know you'd be the first to reply? I am taking her out on Sunday but must keep She Who Must Be Obeyed happy by ringing her tonight and then going to a party with her tomorrow. :P

She is sure pretty, though! Nice mismatched grips (with some wear).

[sheepherder]

Just think...Some 70 year old bespectacled Mandarin, squatting in his dirt floor hovel, by candlelight, with his mallet and chisels, carved that out of a chunk of railroad rail...Patiently peeling away the layers hiding the .45 Mauser-style automatic pistol hidden inside...Working by memory of a fleetingly-glimpsed rough diagram of how a C96 worked...That would have been some 100 years ago...

Now his spirit lives in this, his final effort at immortality...And waits for the moment when his work will be proved...or disproved...

[Sergio Natali]

Nice gun, but are you sure it's one of the 8k originally made in 1929?
To me it has strong contaminations of recent productions.

Anyway it's quite nicel

Sergio

[TheRomanhistorian]

Sergio, that's what has me in a quandary. I feel like it could have aspects of both but the evidence seems to fall on it being 'new' but, at the same time, I've never entirely bought the idea that the 1980s ones were 100% original manufactured new but we'll never know, will we?

[Sergio Natali]

Until some years ago from time to time it was fairly easy to find what I call a "pretending Shansei" imported from PRC through Germany, they were absolutely beautiful and in mint condition...
... I had one, far too beautiful to be true, it looked like a 1900 Swiss! Then I sold it.
Sorry, at the price of about 3,500.00 bucks I'd like at least something real.

Sergio

[TheRomanhistorian]

I'll take her to the range tomorrow and test her out but the rifling, though not completely worn, is also not crisp and sharp. We shall see tomorrow what she shoots like (I'll ignore my own pitiful accuracy!).

Michael

[Sergio Natali]

Originally Posted by TheRomanhistorian

I'll take her to the range tomorrow and test her out but the rifling, though not completely worn, is also not crisp and sharp. We shall see tomorrow what she shoots like (I'll ignore my own pitiful accuracy!).

Michael

Michael

I'm going to the range tomorrow morning too (with a 1911 though)
Anyway enjoy your gun and most of all safe shooting!


Sergio

[TheRomanhistorian]

You as well, Sergio! I keep hoping Alvin will stumble in!

[alvin]

Originally Posted by sheepherder

carved that out of a chunk of railroad rail

It's a little bit misunderstanding. Communist arsenal did not have steel importing channel, so they took railroad rails as raw material to make grenade and some gun parts. There was another big benefit for them doing that -- railroads were controlled by their enemies, damaging railroads could delay enemy's movement. That's a common tactic in guerrilla warfare at that time.

But warlords and nationalist arsenals did not use rails to make guns. They imported raw steel from Europe. The production volume was limited by how much steel they had.

This is not one of those 8000 made in 1920s and 1930s. If it works, it could be a little bit fun.

[alvin]

The quality of grenade made from rails by communist was poor. Otto Braun tested three such grenades himself: the 1st one exploded into only two pieces, the 2nd one did not explode at all, the 3rd one exploded too early, it almost injured him. But he's happy and praised arsenal workers "did a great job".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Braun_(Li_De)

[TheRomanhistorian]

Originally Posted by alvin

It's a little bit misunderstanding. Communist arsenal did not have steel importing channel, so they took railroad rails as raw material to make grenade and some gun parts. There was another big benefit for them doing that -- railroads were controlled by their enemies, damaging railroads could delay enemy's movement. That's a common tactic in guerrilla warfare at that time.

But warlords and nationalist arsenals did not use rails to make guns. They imported raw steel from Europe. The production volume was limited by how much steel they had.

This is not one of those 8000 made in 1920s and 1930s. If it works, it could be a little bit fun.

Thanks, Alvin. You are the expert and I am glad you were able to chime in, there were too many features which struck me as oddball about this piece and I didn't want to make a judgment until you weighed in. I almost want a second one now! I think she'll shoot quite well but I don't anticipate putting more than 10 rounds through her a year.

As you once said, I believe, these are now collectibles in their own right. I took this in to my local gun shop and several of us derived a lot of enjoyment just holding the gun and chatting about the history for a few minutes.

[TheRomanhistorian]

Alvin, is there a way to tell if the markings were consistent or not? I see, on all of them, either very simple markings to the more complex formal Chinese text (e.g. more brush-strokes). Does that help in denoting recent/old manufacture? I was thinking back to your list of criteria for distinguishing the two.

Michael

[TheRomanhistorian]

UPDATE: She shoots fine and with no major problems. I put 22 rounds through at the end of my general shooting session.

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by alvin

It's a little bit misunderstanding. Communist arsenal did not have steel importing channel, so they took railroad rails as raw material to make grenade and some gun parts. There was another big benefit for them doing that -- railroads were controlled by their enemies, damaging railroads could delay enemy's movement. That's a common tactic in guerrilla warfare at that time.

But warlords and nationalist arsenals did not use rails to make guns. They imported raw steel from Europe. The production volume was limited by how much steel they had.

There was a feature on Science Channel/How It's Made today on rail steel. Quite interesting and prompted me to look for the chemical composition of the RR rail steel. Here's an interesting thread from BladeForums on this subject, and likens RR steel to 1084 steel...

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/sh...oad-rail-steel

These guys are more interested in heat treating & tempering than in impact resistance but it still seems like rail steel would be good for handgun parts...Especially if you've just ripped up a couple lengths of it to derail the train going over the river Kwai...

[alvin]

Guys, I have a genuine Chinese Broomhandle for sale. In case you may have interest. Here is the ad:

http://luger.gunboards.com/showthrea...-have-interest

I know you work very hard. Please enjoy life a little bit and reward yourself with this special interest item in the domain.

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by alvin

Guys, I have a genuine Chinese Broomhandle for sale. In case you may have interest. Here is the ad:

http://luger.gunboards.com/showthrea...-have-interest

I know you work very hard. Please enjoy life a little bit and reward yourself with this special interest item in the domain.

There is same concern with YouYube videos as with posting off-site - Members who might be interested can not view blocked social media sites. YouTube is numbah one blocked site by government and employers who supply workers with Internet access and computers.

It's ironic that those with the means to afford these items can't even see them while those of us who can't afford them can view them with ease...

[alvin]

My dear sheepherder, you can afford it. Please don't tell me you cannot afford it. You don't want to spend a couple of thousand on a gun, that's a different story, but you can afford it.

I viewed pre98.com, they listed a bunch of fancy P38s recently. Interesting enough, those high priced ones, e.g. $12500 ac40 sold quickly, but those ac44, byf44 at much lower price ,,,, still hanging there. That also matches my collection selling experience in the past two years -- somehow, people chase high end items. It's surprising that expensive guns that I originally estimated being hard to find buyers are all sold. But a few relatively cheaper ones that I thought being easy (e.g. this one) stuck with me. I have another $950 one, also waiting for a buyer.

Please don't use employer's computer to view private stuffs. Go home and view the ad. I bet you will like this one. It's not an easy gun to come on the market. It takes time to find such a sample.

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by alvin

My dear sheepherder, you can afford it. Please don't tell me you cannot afford it. You don't want to spend a couple of thousand on a gun, that's a different story, but you can afford it.

True. But I wasn't referring to me.

For those interested, here is YouTube URL -

https://youtu.be/pSeAzCZojUU