First Luger Buy "almost" completed - but concerns

Jon N · 03-20-2016, 05:31 PM

Hello, I am new to the Forum and from what I have seen I am very glad I joined up!!! I am hoping to close the deal on my first Luger, a 1940 Code 42 this evening. I have some pics but I am technologically challenged so will attempt to describe the condition and list my concerns.
It is an almost identical piece to the one posted by Tinplatejeff on 3/3/16. It has about 60 percent original finish, all matching numbers including the magazine. 4-digit serial no. It has a holster but not date correct, extra non-numbers mag and a takedown tool. Bore is bright but pitted.
My neighbor inherited it from his father in law about 30 years ago. He apparently bought it from a friend but I don't know any more about the history. My major concern is that I cannot verify the ownership or if it may have been stolen... I very much doubt it but won't have any paper trail to prove ownership, it will be a handshake deal. He thinks his father in law had it for many years so I strongly suspect that it is a legit bring-back, but it will be an expensive gamble. Can anyone please give me some guidance as it is my first such purchase. I have my Uncle's 1911 from WWII but I know the history, not so with this leap of faith. But it appears to be a bargain so I don't want to miss it if the risk is acceptable. Thanks for any help!!!!

Olle · 03-20-2016, 05:44 PM

I guess the current owner doesn't have a receipt to show you?

Take the serial number and ask a gun store to run it. This won't show who it actually belongs to, but it will show if it has been reported as stolen. You could also ask if the current owner has the capture papers for it (a document giving the GI permission to take it home), this will tell you who originally brought it to the US and you could try and track previous owners from there. It's a long shot though.

If I were you, I would check and make sure it's not stolen just for peace of mind. That's about as much as you can realistically do, and it will prove good faith if the ownership is ever questioned. Really, a bill of sale will cover the legal mumbo-jumbo.

Jon N · 03-20-2016, 05:55 PM

Thanks so much for getting back to me so quickly!! The opportunity just came up today and he is eager to buy something else in the next few days.
He has no receipt, no capture papers. Never saw anything like that for my Uncle's 1911 either. I know a local police officer and may ask him to check it for me, also have a friendly local gun shop. Can't do any of that on a Sunday evening so I just may get cold feet when my neighbor comes over later. I think he has another guy who also wants it so I will probably miss it if I don't take a gamble on it. Very likely that it has been sitting around since before registration started in the 60's but the possibility that it may have been stolen is a big worry for me.
Thanks again for taking your time to help me out. This is definitely a first-class forum.

Olle · 03-20-2016, 06:17 PM

Just buy it and check it later. I doubt that your neighbor will move and disappear forever before you have had it checked, so if it by any chance comes up as stolen you can just ask the cops to handle it for you. If your neighbor sold you a hot gun, I'm sure he will be very cooperative when the law comes to see him.

DavidJayUden · 03-20-2016, 06:24 PM

I've always felt that a signed bill of sale from the seller was sufficient to cover my butt.
And I would think that before any LEO would run those numbers they would want the gun in hand as they are probably required to snag it if there is a hit.
Personally I'd get a BOS and not worry about it.
dju

Jon N · 03-20-2016, 07:56 PM

Makes sense to me. I'm going to go for it and if I can snag it will have my tech-savvy wife help me post some pics later this week. Reading this Forum today has me psyched up about Lugers in general. Just what I needed...... another collector addiction!
I know when I hold my Uncle's beat-up 1911 in my hands, it is awe-inspiring to handle something he carried on his hip all over the Pacific theater, including Okinowa. While I will never know the places this Luger has been, you are literally holding a piece of history.
Sincerely appreciate all the advice. He hasn't shown up yet but I have my fingers crossed.
jon

Edward Tinker · 03-20-2016, 09:06 PM

Jon, welcome to the forum - I have bought guns and wondered if they ever were stolen, but its only a slight worry if you know the owner now. As said, I would just run the number, there are also a few law enforcement on the forums and years ago they said they could run a number, however if they do so, it has to be reported if found stolen. Realize that serial number blocks for most military and police ran in blocks of 10,000 - so its possible it could come up as 'stolen' and its not.

A true serial number includes any possible 'suffix', its manufacturer etc. so - as an example:
Mauser dated 1940 marked 42 sn 1234
or if it had a suffix
Mauser dated 1940 marked 42 sn 1234b

I collect bring back stories, US, German, Japanese etc

lugerholsterrepair · 03-20-2016, 09:31 PM

Personally I'd get a BOS and not worry about it.
dju
Ditto

wlyon · 03-21-2016, 12:11 AM

Just buy the luger ,get a bill of sale and quit thinking about it. If it is stolen you will probably never know anyway. I would worry more over what you are paying for a 60% finished luger? Your resale on a 1940 42 in that condition is not very good. Generally these later lugers are in pretty good shape. At least many are. Bill

Sergio Natali · 03-21-2016, 03:39 AM

Jon N

I would buy it, have a BOS signed then check it later.
I assume with a signed Bill of Sale you should be fairly safe.

Best regards.

DonVoigt · 03-21-2016, 10:27 AM

Well, a BOS is always good; in fact it is important- if the gun is stolen it will likely keep you out of jail(by demonstrating YOU did not do the stealing).

However, it will not protect you from having to surrender a stolen gun to the authorities; it is the holder of the piece that loses the money! Maybe you can get your cost back from the seller.

I'm in the mist of learning all about this "stolen" problem, as a luger I bought recently(and on these boards) turned out to be a hit on NCIC.

When all is resolved and the story is complete, I'll be doing a post with the whole story so everyone can learn from my experience. Please no questions until I do the thread.

I'll either lose a little or a "lot"- and no response from the seller as yet; so thus far I'm on my own.

I can say it surely makes one a little paranoid about buying anything that costs more than a few bucks!

Olle · 03-21-2016, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

However, it will not protect you from having to surrender a stolen gun to the authorities; it is the holder of the piece that loses the money! Maybe you can get your cost back from the seller.

Recouping the money can indeed be a problem if you buy from somebody you don't know, and/or you give him enough time to spend it. In this case he's buying from his neighbor and he will check once he has bought the gun, so chances are that the neighbor is still there and still has the money. Also, the cops are sure to pay him a visit if there is a problem, and that will probably be good incentive for a quick refund without any further discussion.

Anywho, now we're waiting on a report plus pictures of the acquisition!

DonVoigt · 03-21-2016, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Olle

Recouping the money can indeed be a problem if you buy from somebody you don't know, and/or you give him enough time to spend it. In this case he's buying from his neighbor and he will check once he has bought the gun, so chances are that the neighbor is still there and still has the money. Also, the cops are sure to pay him a visit if there is a problem, and that will probably be good incentive for a quick refund without any further discussion.

Anywho, now we're waiting on a report plus pictures of the acquisition!

Since he is a "neighbor", and he has access to the full serial number and details, and seems worried about it being stolen-

Why not check it first? I.e. before any money is spent?

Desperado · 03-21-2016, 05:41 PM

This may be a righteous deal. For Jon N's sake, I hope so, but each of the quotes below came directly from Jon's postings and each one of them, individually, would set off my "Risk" meter. All of them taken together are blowing my risk meter off the end of the scale.

"...it will be a handshake deal." (I hope this doesn't mean the seller won't even offer a handwritten Bill Of Sale - complete with the seller's Driver's License number - and I get to see the license to verify the number and picture. If he get mad because you don't trust him or offers excuses as to why he doesn't have a DL or other picture ID and walks out, you just won. In today's society almost everyone has some form of picture ID.)

"But it appears to be a bargain so I don't want to miss it if the risk is acceptable." (Every scam I've ever seen has this element - too good to pass up; gotta act quick - before you think about it or have a chance to compare prices/conditions.)

"The opportunity just came up today and he is eager to buy something else in the next few days." (And this element too - the deal is only good for today because I need the money quick - I always walk on this one, even if its a brick-and-mortar store with a pushy salesman. If its a good deal today, it will be a good deal tomorrow. Do I miss out sometimes taking this approach? Yes.)

"I know a local police officer and may ask him to check it for me, also have a friendly local gun shop. Can't do any of that on a Sunday evening." (Tie this one in with the one above - conveniently happens on Sunday making it difficult or impossible to check the serial number or even have the pistol looked at by a knowledgeable gun store owner.)

"I think he has another guy who also wants it so I will probably miss it if I don't take a gamble on it." (Oh, yes. This one is usually included too to justify the two listed just above above.)

We also don't know anything about this neighbor. We are all picturing an established neighborhood where you know all your neighbors, but suppose he is a "neighbor" in the adjoining high-rise, or in a neighborhood where people are moving out as fast as they are moving in - to avoid the bill collectors or police - and no one stays over three months.

Just my $.02 worth. I've probably missed out on some good bargains this way.

Your mileage my vary, etc.

Curly1 · 03-22-2016, 09:55 AM

Good points Desperado.

Olle · 03-23-2016, 12:02 PM

Seems like Jon went quiet... maybe he's in jail for dealing stolen firearms?

Sergio Natali · 03-23-2016, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Olle

Seems like Jon went quiet... maybe he's in jail for dealing stolen firearms?

That made me laugh !

Jon N · 03-25-2016, 10:22 AM

I'm back....not a shady character, just an old gun nut with eye problems. Just had cataract surgery and had a complication. Have badly distorted vision in one eye and having trouble with close work.

Also too old for this computer stuff, having trouble with replies. I'm not tech savvy at all. Just typed a long one but came up unauthorized to post. So I will try again if this message posts.

Thanks for all the comments and suggestions.

Jon N · 03-25-2016, 10:39 AM

Okay, that one worked and I can see the screen today so here goes...
I just bought the Luger last evening. I left out some of the details of the circumstances initially to keep the post from being too long. The seller is not just a neighbor, he is a friend and have known him for over 35 years. He had it for 30 years since his father in law passed away and he acquired it in the late 50's/early 60's.
Got it for $550 cash, he wanted to swap me even up for an AR but I decided to keep it. AR's were impossible to get a year ago and he doesn't want to wait for the next panic shortage.
I know I am assuming some risk but it will likely never leave my gun safe. Will leave notes for my wife on it so she can decide what to do with it when I check out. I think the risk factor is low.
Will post some pics when I can get my wife to show me how to do it. Got spare non-numbers mag, takedown tool, decent 1939 holster and an odd looking chamber brush type tool that folds up. Is this a Luger accessory? It is better than I first thought after I wiped it down, maybe 70%, but will appreciate an expert opinion when I post pics.
As I said previously I am having considerable difficulty seeing up close so it may be a few weeks until I can get some pics up. I sincerely appreciate all the feedback and suggestions. Never expected that being new to the Forum.

JTD · 03-25-2016, 11:56 AM

Jon, I think many here blew the stolen thing here out of proportion. As Ed stated, there are at least several lugers out there with the same ser# w/suffex. If this is brought to light at a hearing, and claimant does not have pictures, or some other rock solid proof, their is no way they can prove it is the stolen gun in question. Heck, there are even several of the rare variants out there that are two of the same!!!! If that were the case, every gun ever listed or pictured here shown for these surveys would be called stolen by some scammer out there in hopes of taking it off you.

I feel the same with the proper stock thing and legal to hook this to that. If all these people scream long and loud enough, someone at ATF could eventually try to use it over some poor unknowing soul they may catch, stating it was very well known, and common knowledge. My 2 cents worth.

03-20-2016, 05:31 PM	#1
Jon N User Join Date: Mar 2016 Posts: 7 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	First Luger Buy "almost" completed - but concerns Hello, I am new to the Forum and from what I have seen I am very glad I joined up!!! I am hoping to close the deal on my first Luger, a 1940 Code 42 this evening. I have some pics but I am technologically challenged so will attempt to describe the condition and list my concerns. It is an almost identical piece to the one posted by Tinplatejeff on 3/3/16. It has about 60 percent original finish, all matching numbers including the magazine. 4-digit serial no. It has a holster but not date correct, extra non-numbers mag and a takedown tool. Bore is bright but pitted. My neighbor inherited it from his father in law about 30 years ago. He apparently bought it from a friend but I don't know any more about the history. My major concern is that I cannot verify the ownership or if it may have been stolen... I very much doubt it but won't have any paper trail to prove ownership, it will be a handshake deal. He thinks his father in law had it for many years so I strongly suspect that it is a legit bring-back, but it will be an expensive gamble. Can anyone please give me some guidance as it is my first such purchase. I have my Uncle's 1911 from WWII but I know the history, not so with this leap of faith. But it appears to be a bargain so I don't want to miss it if the risk is acceptable. Thanks for any help!!!!

03-20-2016, 05:44 PM	#2
Olle User Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Tennessee Posts: 1,149 Thanks: 159 Thanked 664 Times in 318 Posts	I guess the current owner doesn't have a receipt to show you? Take the serial number and ask a gun store to run it. This won't show who it actually belongs to, but it will show if it has been reported as stolen. You could also ask if the current owner has the capture papers for it (a document giving the GI permission to take it home), this will tell you who originally brought it to the US and you could try and track previous owners from there. It's a long shot though. If I were you, I would check and make sure it's not stolen just for peace of mind. That's about as much as you can realistically do, and it will prove good faith if the ownership is ever questioned. Really, a bill of sale will cover the legal mumbo-jumbo. __________________ Deer Hollow Enterprises, LLC Gun repair and restoration

03-20-2016, 06:17 PM	#4
Olle User Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Tennessee Posts: 1,149 Thanks: 159 Thanked 664 Times in 318 Posts	Just buy it and check it later. I doubt that your neighbor will move and disappear forever before you have had it checked, so if it by any chance comes up as stolen you can just ask the cops to handle it for you. If your neighbor sold you a hot gun, I'm sure he will be very cooperative when the law comes to see him. __________________ Deer Hollow Enterprises, LLC Gun repair and restoration

03-20-2016, 09:06 PM	#7
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,974 Thanks: 2,072 Thanked 4,608 Times in 2,123 Posts	Jon, welcome to the forum - I have bought guns and wondered if they ever were stolen, but its only a slight worry if you know the owner now. As said, I would just run the number, there are also a few law enforcement on the forums and years ago they said they could run a number, however if they do so, it has to be reported if found stolen. Realize that serial number blocks for most military and police ran in blocks of 10,000 - so its possible it could come up as 'stolen' and its not. A true serial number includes any possible 'suffix', its manufacturer etc. so - as an example: Mauser dated 1940 marked 42 sn 1234 or if it had a suffix Mauser dated 1940 marked 42 sn 1234b I collect bring back stories, US, German, Japanese etc __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

03-20-2016, 09:31 PM	#8
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,775 Thanks: 4,995 Thanked 3,134 Times in 1,439 Posts	Personally I'd get a BOS and not worry about it. dju Ditto __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

03-20-2016, 05:55 PM	#3
Jon N User Join Date: Mar 2016 Posts: 7 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks so much for getting back to me so quickly!! The opportunity just came up today and he is eager to buy something else in the next few days. He has no receipt, no capture papers. Never saw anything like that for my Uncle's 1911 either. I know a local police officer and may ask him to check it for me, also have a friendly local gun shop. Can't do any of that on a Sunday evening so I just may get cold feet when my neighbor comes over later. I think he has another guy who also wants it so I will probably miss it if I don't take a gamble on it. Very likely that it has been sitting around since before registration started in the 60's but the possibility that it may have been stolen is a big worry for me. Thanks again for taking your time to help me out. This is definitely a first-class forum.

03-20-2016, 06:24 PM	#5
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	I've always felt that a signed bill of sale from the seller was sufficient to cover my butt. And I would think that before any LEO would run those numbers they would want the gun in hand as they are probably required to snag it if there is a hit. Personally I'd get a BOS and not worry about it. dju

03-20-2016, 07:56 PM	#6
Jon N User Join Date: Mar 2016 Posts: 7 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Makes sense to me. I'm going to go for it and if I can snag it will have my tech-savvy wife help me post some pics later this week. Reading this Forum today has me psyched up about Lugers in general. Just what I needed...... another collector addiction! I know when I hold my Uncle's beat-up 1911 in my hands, it is awe-inspiring to handle something he carried on his hip all over the Pacific theater, including Okinowa. While I will never know the places this Luger has been, you are literally holding a piece of history. Sincerely appreciate all the advice. He hasn't shown up yet but I have my fingers crossed. jon

03-21-2016, 12:11 AM	#9
wlyon Lifer 2X Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: May 2005 Location: Somewhere in Montana Posts: 2,673 Thanks: 3,243 Thanked 2,658 Times in 988 Posts	Just buy the luger ,get a bill of sale and quit thinking about it. If it is stolen you will probably never know anyway. I would worry more over what you are paying for a 60% finished luger? Your resale on a 1940 42 in that condition is not very good. Generally these later lugers are in pretty good shape. At least many are. Bill __________________ Bill Lyon

03-21-2016, 03:39 AM	#10
Sergio Natali User Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Somewhere in Northern Italy Posts: 2,646 Thanks: 1,087 Thanked 1,783 Times in 1,007 Posts	Jon N I would buy it, have a BOS signed then check it later. I assume with a signed Bill of Sale you should be fairly safe. Best regards. __________________ "Originality can't be restored and should be at the top of any collector's priority list.

03-21-2016, 10:27 AM	#11
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,681 Thanks: 1,443 Thanked 4,356 Times in 2,041 Posts	Well, a BOS is always good; in fact it is important- if the gun is stolen it will likely keep you out of jail(by demonstrating YOU did not do the stealing). However, it will not protect you from having to surrender a stolen gun to the authorities; it is the holder of the piece that loses the money! Maybe you can get your cost back from the seller. I'm in the mist of learning all about this "stolen" problem, as a luger I bought recently(and on these boards) turned out to be a hit on NCIC. When all is resolved and the story is complete, I'll be doing a post with the whole story so everyone can learn from my experience. Please no questions until I do the thread. I'll either lose a little or a "lot"- and no response from the seller as yet; so thus far I'm on my own. I can say it surely makes one a little paranoid about buying anything that costs more than a few bucks! __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

03-21-2016, 05:41 PM	#14
Desperado User Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Murphy, TX (near Dallas) Posts: 38 Thanks: 16 Thanked 46 Times in 16 Posts	This may be a righteous deal. For Jon N's sake, I hope so, but each of the quotes below came directly from Jon's postings and each one of them, individually, would set off my "Risk" meter. All of them taken together are blowing my risk meter off the end of the scale. "...it will be a handshake deal." (I hope this doesn't mean the seller won't even offer a handwritten Bill Of Sale - complete with the seller's Driver's License number - and I get to see the license to verify the number and picture. If he get mad because you don't trust him or offers excuses as to why he doesn't have a DL or other picture ID and walks out, you just won. In today's society almost everyone has some form of picture ID.) "But it appears to be a bargain so I don't want to miss it if the risk is acceptable." (Every scam I've ever seen has this element - too good to pass up; gotta act quick - before you think about it or have a chance to compare prices/conditions.) "The opportunity just came up today and he is eager to buy something else in the next few days." (And this element too - the deal is only good for today because I need the money quick - I always walk on this one, even if its a brick-and-mortar store with a pushy salesman. If its a good deal today, it will be a good deal tomorrow. Do I miss out sometimes taking this approach? Yes.) "I know a local police officer and may ask him to check it for me, also have a friendly local gun shop. Can't do any of that on a Sunday evening." (Tie this one in with the one above - conveniently happens on Sunday making it difficult or impossible to check the serial number or even have the pistol looked at by a knowledgeable gun store owner.) "I think he has another guy who also wants it so I will probably miss it if I don't take a gamble on it." (Oh, yes. This one is usually included too to justify the two listed just above above.) We also don't know anything about this neighbor. We are all picturing an established neighborhood where you know all your neighbors, but suppose he is a "neighbor" in the adjoining high-rise, or in a neighborhood where people are moving out as fast as they are moving in - to avoid the bill collectors or police - and no one stays over three months. Just my $.02 worth. I've probably missed out on some good bargains this way. Your mileage my vary, etc.

03-22-2016, 09:55 AM	#15
Curly1 User Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Upstate New York Posts: 1,255 Thanks: 126 Thanked 717 Times in 374 Posts	Good points Desperado. __________________ Laugh hard and often. Gary

03-23-2016, 12:02 PM	#16
Olle User Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Tennessee Posts: 1,149 Thanks: 159 Thanked 664 Times in 318 Posts	Seems like Jon went quiet... maybe he's in jail for dealing stolen firearms? __________________ Deer Hollow Enterprises, LLC Gun repair and restoration

03-25-2016, 10:22 AM	#18
Jon N User Join Date: Mar 2016 Posts: 7 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I'm back....not a shady character, just an old gun nut with eye problems. Just had cataract surgery and had a complication. Have badly distorted vision in one eye and having trouble with close work. Also too old for this computer stuff, having trouble with replies. I'm not tech savvy at all. Just typed a long one but came up unauthorized to post. So I will try again if this message posts. Thanks for all the comments and suggestions.

03-25-2016, 10:39 AM	#19
Jon N User Join Date: Mar 2016 Posts: 7 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Okay, that one worked and I can see the screen today so here goes... I just bought the Luger last evening. I left out some of the details of the circumstances initially to keep the post from being too long. The seller is not just a neighbor, he is a friend and have known him for over 35 years. He had it for 30 years since his father in law passed away and he acquired it in the late 50's/early 60's. Got it for $550 cash, he wanted to swap me even up for an AR but I decided to keep it. AR's were impossible to get a year ago and he doesn't want to wait for the next panic shortage. I know I am assuming some risk but it will likely never leave my gun safe. Will leave notes for my wife on it so she can decide what to do with it when I check out. I think the risk factor is low. Will post some pics when I can get my wife to show me how to do it. Got spare non-numbers mag, takedown tool, decent 1939 holster and an odd looking chamber brush type tool that folds up. Is this a Luger accessory? It is better than I first thought after I wiped it down, maybe 70%, but will appreciate an expert opinion when I post pics. As I said previously I am having considerable difficulty seeing up close so it may be a few weeks until I can get some pics up. I sincerely appreciate all the feedback and suggestions. Never expected that being new to the Forum.

03-25-2016, 11:56 AM	#20
JTD User Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: PA Posts: 428 Thanks: 218 Thanked 410 Times in 151 Posts	Jon, I think many here blew the stolen thing here out of proportion. As Ed stated, there are at least several lugers out there with the same ser# w/suffex. If this is brought to light at a hearing, and claimant does not have pictures, or some other rock solid proof, their is no way they can prove it is the stolen gun in question. Heck, there are even several of the rare variants out there that are two of the same!!!! If that were the case, every gun ever listed or pictured here shown for these surveys would be called stolen by some scammer out there in hopes of taking it off you. I feel the same with the proper stock thing and legal to hook this to that. If all these people scream long and loud enough, someone at ATF could eventually try to use it over some poor unknowing soul they may catch, stating it was very well known, and common knowledge. My 2 cents worth.