Byf 41

campfooey · 02-23-2016, 09:35 PM

I bought this Luger a while back and would like to know more about it and what you think it may be worth and some of its history. The pistol has some holster ware on its high points but a least 90% of the bluing remains. The serial number is 6410 U all the numbers match down to the firing pin and the magazine and the grips are numbered and have a very small 655eagle stamped in them. Its toggle is stamped BYF and 41 on top of barrel and is double stamped 655 and eagle swastika. The magazine is stamped 6410 U and has P08 on right side and fxo 37 eagle and 37 on top. The tool is marked 655 but it hard to read. the extra mag. is 1586C with 122 37 eagle on left side. The holster is in very good shape no cracks or tears or missing stitching its marked P08 on right and CEY 40 WaA47 eagle swastika on left.

campfooey · 02-23-2016, 09:43 PM

More pictures can only upload three pictures at a time.

campfooey · 02-23-2016, 09:47 PM

more pictures

campfooey · 02-23-2016, 09:51 PM

more

ithacaartist · 02-23-2016, 10:08 PM

Verrry nice rig, John. I'd say you're looking at at least $2k, but we'll wait until the guys who know best give a little guidance.

campfooey · 02-27-2016, 11:13 PM

Could use some info on the value and any other information

DavidJayUden · 02-27-2016, 11:57 PM

Like David says, nice rig and worth $2000 plus. You might want to surf the Simpsons, Ltd, site for a close match and approx. price.
It seems like asking prices are creeping up, but I'm not sure where the hammer actually falls on a lot of these.
You are limited to serious collectors, not the always-wanted-a-Luger crowd.
If I were selling it I'd start at $2500 plus, and see where it goes from there.
dju

MikeP · 02-29-2016, 06:18 AM

Very nice find.

$2500 would be a good price the way things are today.

A dealer would want more.

The holster is a big plus as is the matching mag.

mrerick · 02-29-2016, 08:57 AM

Very nice Luger.

You need to look into a couple of things. The matching numbered magazine's "1" digit has a different appearance than the "1" on your other magazine (which looks authentic). Try and post a picture of your matching magazine positioned just like the picture of your other one, showing the reflection profile of the shiny surface of the base. The bases should show a similar reflective surface profile.

The stitching on your holster is uneven. Post some additional photos of your holster, including the front strap and the side profile along the curved surface on the left side of the holster. Also the interior including the tool compartment. I'm not an expert on holster authenticity, but there are members here that are.

Marc

John Sabato · 02-29-2016, 10:13 AM

Please provide additional photos in different light of the serial number on the front of the frame. I am sorry to say that based on the photos you have provided so far, that I suspect that this frame has been renumbered at some time in its past.

Nomadr · 02-29-2016, 11:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Sabato

Please provide additional photos in different light of the serial number on the front of the frame. I am sorry to say that based on the photos you have provided so far, that I suspect that this frame has been renumbered at some time in its past.

John. What don't you like? They look good to me.

Bob

ithacaartist · 03-01-2016, 01:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nomadr

John. What don't you like? They look good to me.

Bob

The frame appears in the pics to not be dead flush with the front end of the barrel extension. And the flat surface does look a little rough, and this helps reveal that the numbers were stamped after the surface was finish ground. Is the grinding rough enough to make it suspect? The blend into the radius below looks pretty smooth to me, though, which tips the scale back towards original. Grinding to allow re-stamping usually alters the smooth tangential transition of surfaces in this area. I do not have enough experience to make a call on whether the upper/frame offset is big enough to make a difference. I'm curious, too, John!

John Sabato · 03-01-2016, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ithacaartist

The frame appears in the pics to not be dead flush with the front end of the barrel extension. And the flat surface does look a little rough, and this helps reveal that the numbers were stamped after the surface was finish ground. Is the grinding rough enough to make it suspect? The blend into the radius below looks pretty smooth to me, though, which tips the scale back towards original. Grinding to allow re-stamping usually alters the smooth tangential transition of surfaces in this area. I do not have enough experience to make a call on whether the upper/frame offset is big enough to make a difference. I'm curious, too, John!

Let me start this by saying this is all speculation, but is based on looking at LOTS of frame serial numbers and slide to frame relationships over the years... this is all just my opinion.

You have hit the largest 'tells' but let me refine them a bit from my perspective:

See the letter "A" in the first photo...The left side of the photo shows some edge damage of the frame. The vertical striations which are indicative of a "grind" probably by a belt sander, are smoothe in appearance along the edge which means to me that the grind took place after this damage occurred.

As you mentioned, the upper receiver protrudes past the front edge of the frame-(See "B")-another indication that the frame was ground. The fact that the protrusion appears to stick out a little further on the right of the photo than it does on the left tells me the grind was done freehand and not in a jig of any kind.

Further indication of freehand grind is the uneven grind line shown below the red line associated with my "C"

In photo number 2, the closeup of the stamped serial number, I have lightened the contrast a little to make the marks indicated by my "D" arrows show up a little better...which look to me like traces of a previous number on this frame. (there is also a mark above the top of the number "1" which I didn't point out when I marked up the photo.

Above the "D", you can see that the front edge of the frame (below the barrel) is normally somewhat sharp, and this one is as well, but the edge also shows some unevenness from the grind.

Lastly, I don't see and stamp halos at all on the frame, so the number would have to have been stamped before the grind, and not after the finishing operation...

Just my $0.02.... spend it wisely...

ithacaartist · 03-02-2016, 12:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Sabato

See the letter "A" in the first photo...The left side of the photo shows some edge damage of the frame. The vertical striations which are indicative of a "grind" probably by a belt sander, are smoothe in appearance along the edge which means to me that the grind took place after this damage occurred.

This makes sense. On the other pistol posted, the "turned" corners look better, even with a slight file mark.

Quote:

In photo number 2, the closeup of the stamped serial number, I have lightened the contrast a little to make the marks indicated by my "D" arrows show up a little better...which look to me like traces of a previous number on this frame. (there is also a mark above the top of the number "1" which I didn't point out when I marked up the photo.

This makes me suspicious, too, though grain of the grinding both starts and stops, and continues thru the numbers. But I see what you've pointed out.

Quote:

Lastly, I don't see and stamp halos at all on the frame, so the number would have to have been stamped before the grind, and not after the finishing operation...

I see metal displaced by the stamping and not ground off, which makes me want to say ground, then stamped, then blued (re?).

Thanks for sharing, John!

Sergio Natali · 02-29-2016, 01:08 PM

Can't tell you much about the holster, and the gun seems like a nice one, although I'd like to see some more close up pictures of it.

Best.

DonVoigt · 02-29-2016, 03:12 PM

You bought it, so what you paid is the value, isn't it?

Want to share that?

campfooey · 03-01-2016, 09:21 PM

I'll really look it over and let you guys know what I think. If I sell it I'm not sure what to say about it to a buyer? John

tharpo · 03-01-2016, 09:55 PM

Here is a slightly later 41 byf in the "z" block for comparison. Three of the serial numbers are the same. I think the stampings match up well with campfooey's gun which leads me to believe that campfooey's Luger and magazine are fine.

alvin · 03-01-2016, 10:12 PM

I think A, B, D being OK.

C,,, may have some touch up.

alanint · 03-01-2016, 10:33 PM

I think it was just a bad day at the finishing wheel. The font, placement, etc. all seem right and it looks like the bad grind happened before it was marked. The same level of workmanship is evident on the second pistol that was posted. A look at the serial on the left side of the receiver would be nice.

02-23-2016, 10:08 PM	#5
ithacaartist Twice a Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Atop the highest hill in Schuyler County NY Posts: 3,400 Thanks: 7,555 Thanked 2,643 Times in 1,393 Posts	Verrry nice rig, John. I'd say you're looking at at least $2k, but we'll wait until the guys who know best give a little guidance. __________________ "... Liberty is the seed and soil, the air and light, the dew and rain of progress, love and joy."-- Robert Greene Ingersoll 1894

02-29-2016, 08:57 AM	#9
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,925 Thanks: 1,377 Thanked 3,139 Times in 1,520 Posts	Very nice Luger. You need to look into a couple of things. The matching numbered magazine's "1" digit has a different appearance than the "1" on your other magazine (which looks authentic). Try and post a picture of your matching magazine positioned just like the picture of your other one, showing the reflection profile of the shiny surface of the base. The bases should show a similar reflective surface profile. The stitching on your holster is uneven. Post some additional photos of your holster, including the front strap and the side profile along the curved surface on the left side of the holster. Also the interior including the tool compartment. I'm not an expert on holster authenticity, but there are members here that are. Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

02-29-2016, 10:13 AM	#10
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,309 Times in 1,098 Posts	Please provide additional photos in different light of the serial number on the front of the frame. I am sorry to say that based on the photos you have provided so far, that I suspect that this frame has been renumbered at some time in its past. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

02-29-2016, 01:08 PM	#15
Sergio Natali User Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Somewhere in Northern Italy Posts: 2,646 Thanks: 1,087 Thanked 1,783 Times in 1,007 Posts	Can't tell you much about the holster, and the gun seems like a nice one, although I'd like to see some more close up pictures of it. Best. __________________ "Originality can't be restored and should be at the top of any collector's priority list.

02-29-2016, 03:12 PM	#16
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,681 Thanks: 1,443 Thanked 4,356 Times in 2,041 Posts	You bought it, so what you paid is the value, isn't it? Want to share that? __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

02-27-2016, 11:13 PM	#6
campfooey User Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 72 Thanks: 1 Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts	Could use some info on the value and any other information

02-27-2016, 11:57 PM	#7
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	Like David says, nice rig and worth $2000 plus. You might want to surf the Simpsons, Ltd, site for a close match and approx. price. It seems like asking prices are creeping up, but I'm not sure where the hammer actually falls on a lot of these. You are limited to serious collectors, not the always-wanted-a-Luger crowd. If I were selling it I'd start at $2500 plus, and see where it goes from there. dju

02-29-2016, 06:18 AM	#8
MikeP User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: ILL Posts: 686 Thanks: 36 Thanked 452 Times in 198 Posts	Very nice find. $2500 would be a good price the way things are today. A dealer would want more. The holster is a big plus as is the matching mag.

03-01-2016, 09:21 PM	#17
campfooey User Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 72 Thanks: 1 Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts	I'll really look it over and let you guys know what I think. If I sell it I'm not sure what to say about it to a buyer? John

03-01-2016, 10:12 PM	#19
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	I think A, B, D being OK. C,,, may have some touch up.

03-01-2016, 10:33 PM	#20
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,917 Times in 1,193 Posts	I think it was just a bad day at the finishing wheel. The font, placement, etc. all seem right and it looks like the bad grind happened before it was marked. The same level of workmanship is evident on the second pistol that was posted. A look at the serial on the left side of the receiver would be nice. Last edited by alanint; 03-02-2016 at 10:51 AM.