1936 S/42 All Matching #s?

Airzoo Guy · 12-01-2015, 09:48 AM

Hello,

This is my first post here, as I'm new to Lugers. I recently purchased what was advertised as a 1936 Mauser-built (S/42) P08 with all matching serial numbers (excluding the mag). Now, however, I'm suspicious. The side plate has the correct number on it, but the font is different from stampings on the rest of the gun; in particular the numeral "7" is different. On the rest of the gun, the number appears as it does above...the diagonal part of the numeral is straight...but on the side plate the diagonal part of the numeral is curved. The same stamping appears on the take-down lever, which in addition has another (different) number stamped on the bottom where I'm told that guns made for commercial sale were stamped. The gun also appears to have been refinished, as the parts that should be strawed are not. I'll try to attach photos, but my question is...did I buy a gun that has been tampered with? Or is this some odd fluke in production?

Thanks,

John

DonVoigt · 12-01-2015, 10:39 AM

Hi and welcome.
You have a good eye, I believe you are correct that the side plate and take down lever have been
re-numbered to make a matching piece. Font is different and larger; and the 7 seems to have been struck 3 times at least.

Check the inside of the side plate, it should also have 2 digits, either 40 or 41(the first two digits of the serial number or same +1). If not, then it is a definite renumber.

Post a picture of the inside if you can. A straight on picture of the front of the frame serial numbers is always a good picture to post too.

Yes, I'm afraid you bought a pistol that has been tampered with or "boosted"(to increase value).

If you paid more than $800 or so, you paid too much, IMO- and should try to return or at least get some adjustment.

Airzoo Guy · 12-01-2015, 10:49 AM

I was afraid of that. Here's a pic of the front of the frame...I'll have to take the one of the inside of the side plate this evening.

Thanks,

John

mrerick · 12-01-2015, 11:33 AM

The side plate and take down lever stampings do not look like factory numbering dies to me either.

The take down lever with the number on the bottom came from a commercially proofed (rather than military accepted) gun.

If sold as all matching, it was mis-represented.

Marc

wlyon · 12-01-2015, 12:48 PM

The sideplate inside two digit serial number did not appear until near the end of the 36 production. For whatever reason it is not uncommon to find different fonts on individual Mauser lugers. Agree this one has been boosted. If sold as a matching original I would ask for a refund or at least a price reduction. If they will not I would make sure the world knew who sold it. Bill

DavidJayUden · 12-01-2015, 01:16 PM

Also, check the lower edge of the side plate to see if it too has previous commercial numbers. Also specify and maybe photo the small parts that are blued which should have been straw colored.
Do you have any recourse on the purchase price, or is it a done deal?
dju

Airzoo Guy · 12-01-2015, 01:49 PM

I have checked the bottom of the side plate, and it has no number. I will not be able to check the inside of the side plate until this evening.

Yes, the gun was sold as all-matching, and I can prove that...I made a copy of the advert. It's obviously partly my fault for not doing my homework first, and being too trusting. However, I have raised the issue with the seller twice, who thus far has not returned my attempts at communication. It appears that I'm screwed, lesson learned. If that in fact turns out to be the case, you can bet I'll be posting the name of the seller.

Sergio Natali · 12-01-2015, 02:07 PM

AirzooGuy

Don't worry that happened to everyone, unfortunately before buying a Luger one should do his homework as you correctly said i.e. read a lot and try to learn, as especially with these guns there is always something new and interesting to learn.

mrerick · 12-01-2015, 09:29 PM

While they may seem expensive, the reference books published about our Lugers and resources like this discussion board are quite valuable for those wanting to collect them.

There is unfortunately a cottage industry in boosting Lugers. Many of the fakes are very well done, especially as you get to more rare and valuable variations...

Airzoo Guy · 12-02-2015, 08:13 AM

An update. After a discussion with the seller, which unfortunately became somewhat heated, he has agreed to take the piece back. I'd like to thank everyone for their input and insights...this was definitely a lesson learned on my part. I don't know if this particular seller was ignorant or if he knew what he was doing, but nevertheless, someone somewhere was not being honest. Guess you just can't be too careful.

John

DavidJayUden · 12-02-2015, 09:02 AM

Congratulations on getting out of that one. Just out of curiosity, if you care to share, how much money was involved?
dju

Airzoo Guy · 12-02-2015, 09:11 AM

Around $1400, which didn't seem like a bad price for an all-matching (minus magazine) gun. Was I right on that score, or was the price too high even had the gun been correct?

alanint · 12-02-2015, 09:49 AM

A more than fair price for an all-matching, correct 1936 Mauser.

DonVoigt · 12-02-2015, 10:29 AM

At that price the seller knew it was bad or was truly ignorant.

DavidJayUden · 12-02-2015, 01:08 PM

For an unmolested gun I would consider $1400 to be fair. For one with such glaring deficiencies, it was way high.
A mismatched shooter in that shape should bring around $1000, but one with amateurish attempts at boosting, IMHO, suffers even more.
dju

Mike Z · 12-04-2015, 10:15 PM

As stated by other members. The td lever and side plate have not original numbers.

Airzoo Guy · 12-11-2015, 03:58 PM

Update. The seller took the gun back, and my check is supposedly in the mail. The gun is back on Gunbroker, still listed as all matching. About the only thing they changed in the ad is that the side plate has an "overstamp" on it. No mention of the different font on the side plate and the take-down lever, and the commercial serial number on the bottom of the take-down lever.

rhuff · 12-11-2015, 04:41 PM

The seller knows that this Luger is not "correct". He is hoping to find an uninformed buyer.

Sergio Natali · 12-12-2015, 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidJayUden

For an unmolested gun I would consider $1400 to be fair. For one with such glaring deficiencies, it was way high.
A mismatched shooter in that shape should bring around $1000, but one with amateurish attempts at boosting, IMHO, suffers even more.
dju

Here we have more or less the same prices although expressed in EURO but the actual value is equivaent.

DavidJayUden · 12-12-2015, 11:13 AM

Could someone post a GB link to this particular gun?
Thanks!
dju

12-01-2015, 11:33 AM	#4
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,925 Thanks: 1,377 Thanked 3,139 Times in 1,520 Posts	The side plate and take down lever stampings do not look like factory numbering dies to me either. The take down lever with the number on the bottom came from a commercially proofed (rather than military accepted) gun. If sold as all matching, it was mis-represented. Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

12-01-2015, 12:48 PM	#5
wlyon Lifer 2X Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: May 2005 Location: Somewhere in Montana Posts: 2,673 Thanks: 3,243 Thanked 2,658 Times in 988 Posts	The sideplate inside two digit serial number did not appear until near the end of the 36 production. For whatever reason it is not uncommon to find different fonts on individual Mauser lugers. Agree this one has been boosted. If sold as a matching original I would ask for a refund or at least a price reduction. If they will not I would make sure the world knew who sold it. Bill __________________ Bill Lyon

12-01-2015, 02:07 PM	#8
Sergio Natali User Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Somewhere in Northern Italy Posts: 2,646 Thanks: 1,087 Thanked 1,783 Times in 1,007 Posts	AirzooGuy Don't worry that happened to everyone, unfortunately before buying a Luger one should do his homework as you correctly said i.e. read a lot and try to learn, as especially with these guns there is always something new and interesting to learn. __________________ "Originality can't be restored and should be at the top of any collector's priority list.

12-01-2015, 09:29 PM	#9
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,925 Thanks: 1,377 Thanked 3,139 Times in 1,520 Posts	While they may seem expensive, the reference books published about our Lugers and resources like this discussion board are quite valuable for those wanting to collect them. There is unfortunately a cottage industry in boosting Lugers. Many of the fakes are very well done, especially as you get to more rare and valuable variations... __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

12-01-2015, 10:39 AM	#2
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,681 Thanks: 1,443 Thanked 4,356 Times in 2,041 Posts	Hi and welcome. You have a good eye, I believe you are correct that the side plate and take down lever have been re-numbered to make a matching piece. Font is different and larger; and the 7 seems to have been struck 3 times at least. Check the inside of the side plate, it should also have 2 digits, either 40 or 41(the first two digits of the serial number or same +1). If not, then it is a definite renumber. Post a picture of the inside if you can. A straight on picture of the front of the frame serial numbers is always a good picture to post too. Yes, I'm afraid you bought a pistol that has been tampered with or "boosted"(to increase value). If you paid more than $800 or so, you paid too much, IMO- and should try to return or at least get some adjustment.

12-01-2015, 01:16 PM	#6
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	Also, check the lower edge of the side plate to see if it too has previous commercial numbers. Also specify and maybe photo the small parts that are blued which should have been straw colored. Do you have any recourse on the purchase price, or is it a done deal? dju

12-01-2015, 01:49 PM	#7
Airzoo Guy User Join Date: Dec 2015 Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	I have checked the bottom of the side plate, and it has no number. I will not be able to check the inside of the side plate until this evening. Yes, the gun was sold as all-matching, and I can prove that...I made a copy of the advert. It's obviously partly my fault for not doing my homework first, and being too trusting. However, I have raised the issue with the seller twice, who thus far has not returned my attempts at communication. It appears that I'm screwed, lesson learned. If that in fact turns out to be the case, you can bet I'll be posting the name of the seller.

12-02-2015, 08:13 AM	#10
Airzoo Guy User Join Date: Dec 2015 Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	An update. After a discussion with the seller, which unfortunately became somewhat heated, he has agreed to take the piece back. I'd like to thank everyone for their input and insights...this was definitely a lesson learned on my part. I don't know if this particular seller was ignorant or if he knew what he was doing, but nevertheless, someone somewhere was not being honest. Guess you just can't be too careful. John

12-02-2015, 09:02 AM	#11
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	Congratulations on getting out of that one. Just out of curiosity, if you care to share, how much money was involved? dju

12-02-2015, 09:11 AM	#12
Airzoo Guy User Join Date: Dec 2015 Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Around $1400, which didn't seem like a bad price for an all-matching (minus magazine) gun. Was I right on that score, or was the price too high even had the gun been correct?

12-02-2015, 09:49 AM	#13
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,917 Times in 1,193 Posts	A more than fair price for an all-matching, correct 1936 Mauser.

12-02-2015, 10:29 AM	#14
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,681 Thanks: 1,443 Thanked 4,356 Times in 2,041 Posts	At that price the seller knew it was bad or was truly ignorant.

12-02-2015, 01:08 PM	#15
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	For an unmolested gun I would consider $1400 to be fair. For one with such glaring deficiencies, it was way high. A mismatched shooter in that shape should bring around $1000, but one with amateurish attempts at boosting, IMHO, suffers even more. dju

12-04-2015, 10:15 PM	#16
Mike Z User Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Michigan Posts: 181 Thanks: 56 Thanked 79 Times in 39 Posts	As stated by other members. The td lever and side plate have not original numbers.

12-11-2015, 03:58 PM	#17
Airzoo Guy User Join Date: Dec 2015 Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Update. The seller took the gun back, and my check is supposedly in the mail. The gun is back on Gunbroker, still listed as all matching. About the only thing they changed in the ad is that the side plate has an "overstamp" on it. No mention of the different font on the side plate and the take-down lever, and the commercial serial number on the bottom of the take-down lever.

12-11-2015, 04:41 PM	#18
rhuff Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Az. Posts: 2,314 Thanks: 2,746 Thanked 998 Times in 733 Posts	The seller knows that this Luger is not "correct". He is hoping to find an uninformed buyer.

12-12-2015, 11:13 AM	#20
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	Could someone post a GB link to this particular gun? Thanks! dju