Breech block extractor problem

Vic103 · 08-22-2015, 01:31 PM

Hi guys, I went to the range today and put about 30 or 40 rounds through my Luger. It was standard Federal 9mm Luger ammo.

I started to notice the metal at the top of the breech block started bulgeing from the keeper steps of the extractor:

What is causing this? Is it a headspace problem? Because I know I am about at the max headspace (.776)

Thanks for your help.

nukem556 · 08-22-2015, 03:09 PM

Is it a Erfurt? I had a breechblock do exactly the same thing in the same place. Don't know if excessive headspace would cause it or not. On most lugers, there is a gap when closed between the breechblock and the face of the reciever, so I don't think a deep chamber would make the two parts slam into each other.

mrerick · 08-22-2015, 03:11 PM

What is the condition of the rear of the receiver between the ears where the rear toggle hits is? Is it getting hammered or peened?

This could be a weak recoil spring.

Marc

Ron Wood · 08-22-2015, 03:46 PM

I hsve no idea what causes that deformation but I do know that I have seen several examples of breech blocks that have "spalled" at that location, with pieces actually missing from the front of the block. It looks like this breech block is headed in that direction...too bad.

rhuff · 08-22-2015, 04:26 PM

A couple of questions....is this an original breechblock or an aftermarket item? Does the extractor move freely up and down in the extractor channel?

alanint · 08-22-2015, 04:27 PM

I agree with Ron. We are seeing the "before" photo of that typical double chip breechblock that gets presented on occasion.

Vic103 · 08-22-2015, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Is it a Erfurt?

I think it is a DWM.

Quote:

A couple of questions....is this an original breechblock or an aftermarket item? Does the extractor move freely up and down in the extractor channel?

It is an orginal breechblock that I bought from the Luger Doctor a year or two ago. The extractor moved freely.

Quote:

What is the condition of the rear of the receiver between the ears where the rear toggle hits is? Is it getting hammered or peened?

This could be a weak recoil spring.

It dosen't look too bad. (I think) here are some pics:

I just wonder because of the headspace, when the round fires that the case dosen't have a good seal in the chamber and the casing is ejected sooner than it should be. Like timing is off, I don't know.

The headspaceing always did bother me, I should probely try fixing this first. This will be tough because I have to somehow turn (screw in) the barrel one whole revolution. And then recut the chamber with a chamber reamer (which I do not have).

DonVoigt · 08-22-2015, 09:17 PM

I don't think you will have success with your idea of setting back the barrel, there won't be enough of the flange left; the extractor cut would have to be re-done, in addition to re-cutting the chamber.

What you need is a different bolt, or front toggle if the head space closes on a "field" guage.

Looking at the picture, though it may be a shadow or the angle, is the extractor broken? Allowing too much movement.

Have you had the extractor out to see its condition?

What ammo are you shooting?

How did you arrive at .776 as the headspace?

Vic103 · 08-22-2015, 10:14 PM

You are right, moving my barrel one revolution would require approximately.050 of stock removal. (I just checked it.) So that is not an option. Yes I have had extractor out and no the extractor is not broken.

I made a brass plug exactly.776 in length slightly smaller than the diameter of the chamber. The toggle with breechblock will close and lock on it. You can feel it touch the chamber lip edge and breechblock face. It hardly takes any force at all to lock the toggle, but it won't close in a free state.

I was shooting Federal 9mm Luger ammo.

Vic103 · 08-22-2015, 10:39 PM

I wonder if it's possible to sleeve toggle hole which pins to receiver. If I moved it about .015 that would give me a headspace of .761

Min is .754
Max is .776
The mean would be .765

DonVoigt · 08-23-2015, 09:42 AM

It would be a major operation to mill/bore a hole offset to the front, in an existing block; and that would not solve the existing problem of the damaged area.

You need a new block and may have to select fit from more than one to reduce your headspace- though I do NOT think headspace is causing this problem.

If you felt any resistance on the closure on your guage, the head space was shorter than the guage. The brass is likely now deformed, guages are made from steel for just this reason.
Closing the toggle with any force negates the use of the guage, as the toggle gives additional leverage.

My no go guage is 0.757 and the go gage is 0.751 (just measured them), so there is something amiss in the land of guages and measurements it seems.

Where does your data on headspace come from?

What I see is more in like with the brass measurement mentioned of 0.745.

Cartridges of the World gives a case length of 0.754.

I did find this SAAMI spec page, which gives the head space from
.754 min to .776 max. As we know, military specs will be different, usually larger.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vic103

I wonder if it's possible to sleeve toggle hole which pins to receiver. If I moved it about .015 that would give me a headspace of .761

Min is .754
Max is .776
The mean would be .765

Vic103 · 08-23-2015, 10:41 AM

I guess an easy thing to do would be to change the main spring and see what happens.

I just wonder if it is the timing, toggle is blowing back too soon.

rhuff · 08-23-2015, 05:38 PM

When you have the complete toggle train out of the receiver, are the joints/pins a good fit with minimal side to side, and fore and aft movement? The headspacing on some of these old warhorses is pretty "generous" but not producing that kind of result to the breechblock. Is your extractor OEM or aftermarket?

Vic103 · 08-23-2015, 07:00 PM

The pins and joints are bit worn but not terribly.

The extractor is a aftermarket. With aftermarket spring.

The pistol shot very well no feeding problems and no ejection problems and was very accurate.

I gotta get it running right, it is so much fun to shoot.

DonVoigt · 08-23-2015, 09:27 PM

Vic,

You say above that is shoots well and is accurate, what are you tying to get running right? Sounds like it is, the breech block has failed
in a minor way, but still works.

IMO, until you get the front end "fixed", everything else is really secondary.
The bolt is damaged and needs to be replaced, it won't get any better or heal itself-JMHO.

Of course if you are happy with the appearance and possibility of greater damage you can just shoot it as it.

Before you change the spring, count the coil turns and report.

rhuff · 08-24-2015, 02:32 PM

Vic,

I have to lean toward a faulty breechblock from a metallurgy standpoint(possibly a heat treatment issue). I am at a loss as to what else could cause this. There is a very strong chance that with this condition, and continued firing, that the two elevated areas on each side of the extractor channel will break off. There is a photo of a breechblock doing this very thing on this forum.....I can't remember exactly where I saw it. I really wish that I could be more help to you.

John Sabato · 08-24-2015, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alanint

I agree with Ron. We are seeing the "before" photo of that typical double chip breechblock that gets presented on occasion.

While several of us have seen breechblock chipped in this area before, I would have to opine that history doesn't necessarily repeat itself, and since this appears to be a heat treatment/hardening issue, I would NOT recommend continuing to shoot with this breechblock, because there is no way to predict how this particular part may fail. An unexpected failure could be catastrophic and cause injury...

Please replace your breechblock before shooting this weapon again. Just my $0.02, but I recommend you spend it wisely, instead of with hindsight regret...

Dick Herman · 08-24-2015, 08:10 PM

IMHO

I believe that we have been looking at this from the wrong direction. The extractor is retainer in the breech block by a pivot pin and two small flanges on each side of the breech block slot. When fired the recoil drives the cartridge case into the ejector. The ejector rotates the cartridge around the end of the breech block face pushing against the extractor. The extractor is then driven into the small internal flanges in the breech block slot.

After looking closely at the functional aspects of the breech block mechanism, I believe that there are at least two possible causes for this spalling problem

Possible insufficient clearance between breech block slot internal flanges and the extractor. Improperly fitting of the extractor, breech block and the ejector.

If the cartridge case rim is too thick upon ejection the extractor is forced into the breech block slot internal flanges. Possibly the breech block internal flanges are not thick enough for this type of forced loading.

Whatever the cause, the breech block needs to be replaced for safe use of this pistol

That's my 2 cents.

ithacaartist · 08-24-2015, 09:09 PM

My take on this is that the extractor must be pounding the insides of its slot laterally--in both directions-- in order to displace material up like this. Unfortunately, there's no discernible way--to me, anyway--for this to happen. The pic shows extra space, both behind the extractor's ears and its tail. One possibility is that, if it's a repro breech block, the slot profile was cut too far back, though how this setup could pound things sideways, as I said, is beyond me at this point!

Vic103 · 08-24-2015, 09:17 PM

You are right John, I do not plan on shooting it until I get a new breechblock. When you look at the breechblock face where the keeper steps for the extractor are with a magnifying glass you can see a small fracture. I don't think I would look very good with that embedded in my face....lol.

I have ordered a new reproduction breechblock and extractor spring. Also I ordered a recoil calibration set from Wolff. It says it comes with 3 mainsprings a 36, 38, and 40 lbs mainspring. I can experiment with these.

The thing that really bothers me is my headspace issue. If it is true (and I believe it is) DonVoigt said he measured his go/nogo gauges and they were .751/.757 My headspace right now is .776!! My chamber is cut wayyyyy too deep by almost .020 That's bad.

I thought I was ok because I was going by the SAMMI spec which said "min .754, max .776".

I bought this reproduction brand new barrel from Numerichs. It is a very nice well made barrel, they just messed up and cut the chamber too deep.

I really like the barrel and wish I could save it, but I don't think I can. Cause I like the idea of having a brand new barrel. I want a good shooter for a long time.

So now I got to try to find a new old (in good condition) 4 inch 9mm barrel that won't break the bank.

Dick, I made very sure that the extractor fit into the breechblock and extractor clearance slot in the barrel and receiver, I am a tool and die maker by trade.

08-22-2015, 01:31 PM	#1
Vic103 User Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 28 Thanks: 0 Thanked 7 Times in 5 Posts	Breech block extractor problem Hi guys, I went to the range today and put about 30 or 40 rounds through my Luger. It was standard Federal 9mm Luger ammo. I started to notice the metal at the top of the breech block started bulgeing from the keeper steps of the extractor: What is causing this? Is it a headspace problem? Because I know I am about at the max headspace (.776) Thanks for your help.

08-22-2015, 03:11 PM	#3
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,900 Thanks: 1,372 Thanked 3,094 Times in 1,503 Posts	What is the condition of the rear of the receiver between the ears where the rear toggle hits is? Is it getting hammered or peened? This could be a weak recoil spring. Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

08-22-2015, 03:46 PM	#4
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,988 Thanks: 1,067 Thanked 5,099 Times in 1,676 Posts	I hsve no idea what causes that deformation but I do know that I have seen several examples of breech blocks that have "spalled" at that location, with pieces actually missing from the front of the block. It looks like this breech block is headed in that direction...too bad. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

08-24-2015, 09:09 PM	#19
ithacaartist Twice a Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Atop the highest hill in Schuyler County NY Posts: 3,290 Thanks: 7,055 Thanked 2,482 Times in 1,323 Posts	My take on this is that the extractor must be pounding the insides of its slot laterally--in both directions-- in order to displace material up like this. Unfortunately, there's no discernible way--to me, anyway--for this to happen. The pic shows extra space, both behind the extractor's ears and its tail. One possibility is that, if it's a repro breech block, the slot profile was cut too far back, though how this setup could pound things sideways, as I said, is beyond me at this point! __________________ "... Liberty is the seed and soil, the air and light, the dew and rain of progress, love and joy."-- Robert Greene Ingersoll 1894

08-22-2015, 03:09 PM	#2
nukem556 User Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Irmo, SC Posts: 625 Thanks: 35 Thanked 168 Times in 107 Posts	Is it a Erfurt? I had a breechblock do exactly the same thing in the same place. Don't know if excessive headspace would cause it or not. On most lugers, there is a gap when closed between the breechblock and the face of the reciever, so I don't think a deep chamber would make the two parts slam into each other.

08-22-2015, 04:26 PM	#5
rhuff Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Az. Posts: 2,273 Thanks: 2,692 Thanked 960 Times in 706 Posts	A couple of questions....is this an original breechblock or an aftermarket item? Does the extractor move freely up and down in the extractor channel?

08-22-2015, 04:27 PM	#6
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	I agree with Ron. We are seeing the "before" photo of that typical double chip breechblock that gets presented on occasion.

08-22-2015, 09:17 PM	#8
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,678 Thanks: 1,441 Thanked 4,348 Times in 2,038 Posts	I don't think you will have success with your idea of setting back the barrel, there won't be enough of the flange left; the extractor cut would have to be re-done, in addition to re-cutting the chamber. What you need is a different bolt, or front toggle if the head space closes on a "field" guage. Looking at the picture, though it may be a shadow or the angle, is the extractor broken? Allowing too much movement. Have you had the extractor out to see its condition? What ammo are you shooting? How did you arrive at .776 as the headspace?

08-22-2015, 10:14 PM	#9
Vic103 User Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 28 Thanks: 0 Thanked 7 Times in 5 Posts	You are right, moving my barrel one revolution would require approximately.050 of stock removal. (I just checked it.) So that is not an option. Yes I have had extractor out and no the extractor is not broken. I made a brass plug exactly.776 in length slightly smaller than the diameter of the chamber. The toggle with breechblock will close and lock on it. You can feel it touch the chamber lip edge and breechblock face. It hardly takes any force at all to lock the toggle, but it won't close in a free state. I was shooting Federal 9mm Luger ammo.

08-22-2015, 10:39 PM	#10
Vic103 User Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 28 Thanks: 0 Thanked 7 Times in 5 Posts	I wonder if it's possible to sleeve toggle hole which pins to receiver. If I moved it about .015 that would give me a headspace of .761 Min is .754 Max is .776 The mean would be .765

08-23-2015, 10:41 AM	#12
Vic103 User Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 28 Thanks: 0 Thanked 7 Times in 5 Posts	I guess an easy thing to do would be to change the main spring and see what happens. I just wonder if it is the timing, toggle is blowing back too soon.

08-23-2015, 05:38 PM	#13
rhuff Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Az. Posts: 2,273 Thanks: 2,692 Thanked 960 Times in 706 Posts	When you have the complete toggle train out of the receiver, are the joints/pins a good fit with minimal side to side, and fore and aft movement? The headspacing on some of these old warhorses is pretty "generous" but not producing that kind of result to the breechblock. Is your extractor OEM or aftermarket?

08-23-2015, 07:00 PM	#14
Vic103 User Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 28 Thanks: 0 Thanked 7 Times in 5 Posts	The pins and joints are bit worn but not terribly. The extractor is a aftermarket. With aftermarket spring. The pistol shot very well no feeding problems and no ejection problems and was very accurate. I gotta get it running right, it is so much fun to shoot.

08-23-2015, 09:27 PM	#15
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,678 Thanks: 1,441 Thanked 4,348 Times in 2,038 Posts	Vic, You say above that is shoots well and is accurate, what are you tying to get running right? Sounds like it is, the breech block has failed in a minor way, but still works. IMO, until you get the front end "fixed", everything else is really secondary. The bolt is damaged and needs to be replaced, it won't get any better or heal itself-JMHO. Of course if you are happy with the appearance and possibility of greater damage you can just shoot it as it. Before you change the spring, count the coil turns and report.

08-24-2015, 02:32 PM	#16
rhuff Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Az. Posts: 2,273 Thanks: 2,692 Thanked 960 Times in 706 Posts	Vic, I have to lean toward a faulty breechblock from a metallurgy standpoint(possibly a heat treatment issue). I am at a loss as to what else could cause this. There is a very strong chance that with this condition, and continued firing, that the two elevated areas on each side of the extractor channel will break off. There is a photo of a breechblock doing this very thing on this forum.....I can't remember exactly where I saw it. I really wish that I could be more help to you.

08-24-2015, 08:10 PM	#18
Dick Herman User Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Texas Posts: 302 Thanks: 496 Thanked 354 Times in 138 Posts	IMHO I believe that we have been looking at this from the wrong direction. The extractor is retainer in the breech block by a pivot pin and two small flanges on each side of the breech block slot. When fired the recoil drives the cartridge case into the ejector. The ejector rotates the cartridge around the end of the breech block face pushing against the extractor. The extractor is then driven into the small internal flanges in the breech block slot. After looking closely at the functional aspects of the breech block mechanism, I believe that there are at least two possible causes for this spalling problem Possible insufficient clearance between breech block slot internal flanges and the extractor. Improperly fitting of the extractor, breech block and the ejector. If the cartridge case rim is too thick upon ejection the extractor is forced into the breech block slot internal flanges. Possibly the breech block internal flanges are not thick enough for this type of forced loading. Whatever the cause, the breech block needs to be replaced for safe use of this pistol That's my 2 cents.

08-24-2015, 09:17 PM	#20
Vic103 User Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 28 Thanks: 0 Thanked 7 Times in 5 Posts	You are right John, I do not plan on shooting it until I get a new breechblock. When you look at the breechblock face where the keeper steps for the extractor are with a magnifying glass you can see a small fracture. I don't think I would look very good with that embedded in my face....lol. I have ordered a new reproduction breechblock and extractor spring. Also I ordered a recoil calibration set from Wolff. It says it comes with 3 mainsprings a 36, 38, and 40 lbs mainspring. I can experiment with these. The thing that really bothers me is my headspace issue. If it is true (and I believe it is) DonVoigt said he measured his go/nogo gauges and they were .751/.757 My headspace right now is .776!! My chamber is cut wayyyyy too deep by almost .020 That's bad. I thought I was ok because I was going by the SAMMI spec which said "min .754, max .776". I bought this reproduction brand new barrel from Numerichs. It is a very nice well made barrel, they just messed up and cut the chamber too deep. I really like the barrel and wish I could save it, but I don't think I can. Cause I like the idea of having a brand new barrel. I want a good shooter for a long time. So now I got to try to find a new old (in good condition) 4 inch 9mm barrel that won't break the bank. Dick, I made very sure that the extractor fit into the breechblock and extractor clearance slot in the barrel and receiver, I am a tool and die maker by trade.