Possible Fraud?

siegersallee · 06-02-2015, 06:33 AM

Hi All,

I was watching this item on GunBroker a couple of months ago:
Unit Marked Erfurt.

Recently, I stumbled across this listing on ArmsList: WWI German Luger

Note that the ArmsList seller registered and posted the listing on 3/6/2015 and the GunBroker auction ended with a sell on 3/9/2015. Also, note the price on the ArmsList listing and the winning bid on GunBroker.

I suspect the ArmsList listing is fraudulent. What are your thoughts.

Update: I have contacted the ArmsList seller to draw him out without revealing my suspicions.

Vigilant,
Richard

John Sabato · 06-02-2015, 06:49 AM

Great Observations! One way to make sure that a listing is not fraudulent and that the 'seller' actually has possession of the gun is to request that they post or send a photograph to show some obscure angle or feature of the gun, such as two different views of the firing pin and sear. If they can't supply the photo, then they very likely don't have the gun to sell...

In this case, I concur that the second listing is most likely a scam...

dz · 06-02-2015, 08:00 AM

Fraud is very prevalent on Armslist so be carefull.

DonVoigt · 06-02-2015, 08:53 AM

Quite likely a fraud.
One hears/reads about it quite often, people steal pictures and try to "sell" items they do not have.

"drawing out" the seller will accomplish nothing, I would not waste my time; you can report him to
armslist, if enough do perhaps something will be done, but short of sending money and getting
"taken"; what has he done wrong- that you can prove?

This is not to condone the possible fraud, but to recognize the futility of the situation.

ithacaartist · 06-02-2015, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

Quite likely a fraud.
One hears/reads about it quite often, people steal pictures and try to "sell" items they do not have.

"drawing out" the seller will accomplish nothing, I would not waste my time; you can report him to
armslist, if enough do perhaps something will be done, but short of sending money and getting
"taken"; what has he done wrong- that you can prove?

This is not to condone the possible fraud, but to recognize the futility of the situation.

A couple of years ago, a Navy showed up Armslist, priced at $800, IIRC. I pounced on the listing and began communicating with the seller and scraping money together in preparation for scoring this seemingly sweet deal. I posted this saga here at that time, but the upshot is that a listing on Gunauction for $2600 (?) was the original, legitimate one. There was yet another phony listing on a third site.

My FFL emailed to say that the FFL they sent had been altered and actually was listed to a dealer in another state. Needless to say, I sent NO money. Instead, I tried to draw them out with requests the for extra pics--which, of course, the could not provide. I had all sorts of email and real addresses, and I turned all the correspondence over to the ATF. The agent said the case might get "investigated", but I'd never hear about the results, even if it were, and that it would be at least six months to even begin a process.

Perhaps I should have also tipped off the Indianapolis cops. It is ironic that we fear an ATF agent popping up out of nowhere if we slip a board stock onto a standard P.08 and shoot off a mag of rounds, while actual criminals and fraudsters slip through the organization's understaffed and under-funded fingers.

alanint · 06-02-2015, 11:57 AM

Don't ever bother with the ATF. They have neither the interest nor the resources to pursue this.

Local law enforcement and surprisingly, the US Post Office, (as they have jurisdiction if any fraudulent materials were mailed) would be the most likely to look into a case on the local level.

Edward Tinker · 06-02-2015, 01:13 PM

My thoughts on armslist is, if its local, go take a look, otherwise, its too chancy for me

alanint · 06-02-2015, 02:49 PM

I am fortunate to belong to a firearms industry list, with coverage in virtually all 50 states. A number of its members are also law enforcement, which sometimes comes in handy. I've been asked in the past by list members to go over and have a look at something they were interested in and I have asked them for this favor as well. In the past, I've personally discovered several fraudulent Miami addresses given out by internet sellers, simply by driving past, (you can now use google earth to a great extent for this, as well).

Internet trolls are everywhere.

siegersallee · 06-02-2015, 04:31 PM

The reason I want to draw him out is to confirm my suspicions. If they are correct, there is really nothing more that I can do as I do not live in California.

However, I am sure that it is illegal to list property for sale that one does not own.

ugafx4 · 06-02-2015, 07:38 PM

If I had a dollar for every fake Norwegian Colt add on Armslist I would be rich. There are like 8 in 8 different states a day.

DonVoigt · 06-02-2015, 09:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by siegersallee

The reason I want to draw him out is to confirm my suspicions. If they are correct, there is really nothing more that I can do as I do not live in California.

However, I am sure that it is illegal to list property for sale that one does not own.

Your suspicions are confirmed, no doubt.

Listing is not illegal; taking money and not delivering the goods
is!

As they say: "So what, now what?"

ithacaartist · 06-02-2015, 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alanint

I am fortunate to belong to a firearms industry list, with coverage in virtually all 50 states. A number of its members are also law enforcement, which sometimes comes in handy. I've been asked in the past by list members to go over and have a look at something they were interested in and I have asked them for this favor as well. In the past, I've personally discovered several fraudulent Miami addresses given out by internet sellers, simply by driving past, (you can now use google earth to a great extent for this, as well).

Internet trolls are everywhere.

I agree, Doug. The Navy scammers' crappy house was visible on Google Earth. Like Ed says, local only, or use a trusted proxy--which reminds me, I told the Navy scammers that a friend of mine would come by to take a look, and they should call him to arrange this. The phone number I gave them was for the office of the ATF in their jurisdiction.

siegersallee · 06-03-2015, 05:57 AM

Quote:

Listing is not illegal;

Wouldn't listing property that you do not own in a "for sale" section imply intent to commit a crime?

Maybe some of the legal folk here could chime in. To my mind, the act of listing denotes criminal intent.

siegersallee · 06-03-2015, 06:00 AM

Quote:

which reminds me, I told the Navy scammers that a friend of mine would come by to take a look, and they should call him to arrange this. The phone number I gave them was for the office of the ATF in their jurisdiction.

Hmmm...well. done!

Maybe I will string this guy along and tell him my friend in his city will do a visual inspection of the Luger. Then ask him to call the number I provide...the local sheriff's office.

Mac Cat · 06-03-2015, 09:19 AM

I responded early yesterday, but have not had any reply after 24-hours.
I'll let you know.

siegersallee · 06-03-2015, 10:52 AM

Hmmmm.....

I have received additional pictures for the listing noted above which is supposed to be a 1912 Erfurt.
However, the pictures he just sent were for an completely different gun.

John Sabato · 06-03-2015, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by siegersallee

.
However, the pictures he just sent were for an completely different gun.

He probably just stole some new photos from an internet auction in hopes it would satisfy you...

If you insist on playing him along... I recommend that you tell him you know a local police officer

in his area that would be glad to visit and examine the gun in person as a favor to you. Then see if you get any further response.

siegersallee · 06-03-2015, 02:15 PM

Quote:

I recommend that you tell him you know a local police officer in his area that would be glad to visit and examine the gun in person as a favor to you.

Oh, that is another jewel...

He responded just a bit ago saying he got confused with another Luger

and that was it. I have a suspicion that he smells something is awry, the mark of a seasoned criminal.

Here is his email: paulid2@outlook.com.

We should all take turns tormenting him with visions of the FBI, Homeland Security, Police, Sheriff's Deputies, and ATF storming his abode and hauling him out in chains. Though, I doubt he would be phased.

Well, maybe not. I am stooping to his level and embarrassing myself.

Best wishes to us all.

ithacaartist · 06-03-2015, 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by siegersallee

I am stooping to his level and embarrassing myself..

This is a tough job for any of us, but we all can rise to the challenge when necessary!

DonVoigt · 06-04-2015, 09:00 AM

I see now,
you are just playing a game.

If you have the time and enjoy it - go for it!

Just don't be disappointed if you can't "teach the pig to sing".

If you really want to tease the tiger, ask him to send it to you "on approval"!

Aside,
who is that guy in your avatar?

06-02-2015, 06:33 AM	#1
siegersallee User Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 292 Thanks: 107 Thanked 57 Times in 34 Posts	Possible Fraud? Hi All, I was watching this item on GunBroker a couple of months ago: Unit Marked Erfurt. Recently, I stumbled across this listing on ArmsList: WWI German Luger Note that the ArmsList seller registered and posted the listing on 3/6/2015 and the GunBroker auction ended with a sell on 3/9/2015. Also, note the price on the ArmsList listing and the winning bid on GunBroker. I suspect the ArmsList listing is fraudulent. What are your thoughts. Update: I have contacted the ArmsList seller to draw him out without revealing my suspicions. Vigilant, Richard __________________ "Für Gott, Kaiser, und Vaterland" -seeking: Erfrut Mag 1229 (no script)

06-02-2015, 06:49 AM	#2
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,155 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	Great Observations! One way to make sure that a listing is not fraudulent and that the 'seller' actually has possession of the gun is to request that they post or send a photograph to show some obscure angle or feature of the gun, such as two different views of the firing pin and sear. If they can't supply the photo, then they very likely don't have the gun to sell... In this case, I concur that the second listing is most likely a scam... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

06-02-2015, 04:31 PM	#9
siegersallee User Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 292 Thanks: 107 Thanked 57 Times in 34 Posts	The reason I want to draw him out is to confirm my suspicions. If they are correct, there is really nothing more that I can do as I do not live in California. However, I am sure that it is illegal to list property for sale that one does not own. __________________ "Für Gott, Kaiser, und Vaterland" -seeking: Erfrut Mag 1229 (no script)

06-03-2015, 10:52 AM	#16
siegersallee User Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 292 Thanks: 107 Thanked 57 Times in 34 Posts	Hmmmm..... I have received additional pictures for the listing noted above which is supposed to be a 1912 Erfurt. However, the pictures he just sent were for an completely different gun. __________________ "Für Gott, Kaiser, und Vaterland" -seeking: Erfrut Mag 1229 (no script)

06-02-2015, 08:00 AM	#3
dz Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 260 Thanks: 1 Thanked 55 Times in 39 Posts	Fraud is very prevalent on Armslist so be carefull.

06-02-2015, 08:53 AM	#4
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,681 Thanks: 1,443 Thanked 4,355 Times in 2,041 Posts	Quite likely a fraud. One hears/reads about it quite often, people steal pictures and try to "sell" items they do not have. "drawing out" the seller will accomplish nothing, I would not waste my time; you can report him to armslist, if enough do perhaps something will be done, but short of sending money and getting "taken"; what has he done wrong- that you can prove? This is not to condone the possible fraud, but to recognize the futility of the situation.

06-02-2015, 11:57 AM	#6
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,917 Times in 1,193 Posts	Don't ever bother with the ATF. They have neither the interest nor the resources to pursue this. Local law enforcement and surprisingly, the US Post Office, (as they have jurisdiction if any fraudulent materials were mailed) would be the most likely to look into a case on the local level.

06-02-2015, 01:13 PM	#7
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,960 Thanks: 2,062 Thanked 4,592 Times in 2,114 Posts	My thoughts on armslist is, if its local, go take a look, otherwise, its too chancy for me

06-02-2015, 02:49 PM	#8
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,917 Times in 1,193 Posts	I am fortunate to belong to a firearms industry list, with coverage in virtually all 50 states. A number of its members are also law enforcement, which sometimes comes in handy. I've been asked in the past by list members to go over and have a look at something they were interested in and I have asked them for this favor as well. In the past, I've personally discovered several fraudulent Miami addresses given out by internet sellers, simply by driving past, (you can now use google earth to a great extent for this, as well). Internet trolls are everywhere.

06-02-2015, 07:38 PM	#10
ugafx4 User Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 36 Thanks: 5 Thanked 14 Times in 7 Posts	If I had a dollar for every fake Norwegian Colt add on Armslist I would be rich. There are like 8 in 8 different states a day.

06-03-2015, 09:19 AM	#15
Mac Cat Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Austin, Texas Posts: 749 Thanks: 2,154 Thanked 629 Times in 339 Posts	I responded early yesterday, but have not had any reply after 24-hours. I'll let you know.

06-04-2015, 09:00 AM	#20
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,681 Thanks: 1,443 Thanked 4,355 Times in 2,041 Posts	I see now, you are just playing a game. If you have the time and enjoy it - go for it! Just don't be disappointed if you can't "teach the pig to sing". If you really want to tease the tiger, ask him to send it to you "on approval"! Aside, who is that guy in your avatar?