regiment/unit marking?

MetzMan · 10-31-2014, 06:40 PM

I bought a German Luger with regiment markings that appear to read 19US10. Can someone shed some light on this?

roadkill1 · 10-31-2014, 07:50 PM

Eric:

Are you sure you listed your unit marking correctly on your post? Could it be "19.U.5.10."? If you could post a picture of your unit marking, that would be best to confirm. If I am correct, the complete unit name, in German, is, in German, "Ulanen-Regiment Konig Karl (Wurttembergisches) Nr. 19, 5. Eskadron, Waffe Nr. 10." The "rough" english designation would be 19th Ulan Regiment, 5th Squadron, 10 weapon (pistol). The name Ulan designates this unit as carrying Lances, and is categorized as part of their cavalry unit structure.

If you can post a picture of the marking or confirm that what I suggested is how your Luger is exactly stamped on the front grip strap (the typical place a Luger is unit marked), I can provide a little information on this unit.

Ron

MetzMan · 11-01-2014, 07:56 AM

You are right, I assumed it was an 'S'. It is indeed a '5'. I will list photos today as I am curious as to what exactly I have. I appreciate your response Ron.

George Anderson · 11-01-2014, 08:41 AM

Odds are that it is a 1908 first military without a hold-open. I've got its brother.

MetzMan · 11-01-2014, 08:45 AM

I posted some photos George, does that help in any way?

thank you...

George Anderson · 11-01-2014, 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MetzMan

I posted some photos George, does that help in any way?

thank you...

Where did you post the photos?

Ron Wood · 11-01-2014, 09:31 AM

George,
They are posted in Eric's (MetzMan) photo album. The bottom is very likely from a 1908 First Issue, and is marked for the 19 Ulan Regt., Eskadron 5, waffe 10,,,Ron (roadkill1) correctly identified it!

The top is from a 1908 Commercial. It looks like the serial number is 55918. If so it was listed in Hans Tauscher's sales list from 1913 (courtesy of Dwight Gruber's commercial data base).

MetzMan · 11-01-2014, 09:37 AM

Sorry, the pics are not the best. It's 56912. Unfortunately, the serial number 17 also appears with 12. I don't know what this means exactly, related to value and origin.

Edward Tinker · 11-01-2014, 09:41 AM

Just as a learning item for me, is the album more accessible or obvious than posting pictures in the thread?

I know you can post larger pictures in the album, although John has made it where you can post larger photos that self shrink in the thread....

Ron Wood · 11-01-2014, 09:42 AM

Also can't quite make out the frame serial number...looks like it might be 14xx with an "a" suffix (1417a ?). That would put it in the 1908 First Issue military range, manufactured in 1909.

roadkill1 · 11-01-2014, 10:16 AM

Eric:

Still have not see the photos and photos of this Luger with the front grip strap depicting the unit marking is the best want to ensure that I have the correct marking. But assuming my unit marking is correct, this is an interesting history.

As I indicated in my first posting, the complete unit destination as the Germans would have categorized it is "Ulanen-Regiment Konig Karl (Wurttembergisches) Nr. 19, 5. Eskadron, Waffe Nr. 10." The "rough" english designation would be 19th Ulan Regiment, 5th Squadron, 10 weapon (pistol). The name Ulan designates this unit as carrying Lances, and is categorized as part of their cavalry unit structure. This unit was founded on 9 July 1683 as a cavalry regiment with its headquarters and its five squadrons in Stuttgart. In 1889, this regiment was relocated with its headquarters, and squadrons 1,2 and 4 to Ulm and squadrons 2 and 5 to Wiblingen and placed under the operational control of the XIII Army Corps that was headquartered in Stuttgart.

At the outbreak of WWI, the 19th Ulan Regiment was assigned to the 27th Infantry Division, XIII Army Corps (Royal Wurttemberg). As the war continued, various squadrons of the 19th Ulans were reassigned to other divisions but the 5th Squadron did remain assigned to the 27th Division for the entire war.

In 1914, as part of the 5th Army (German Crown Prince) was initially engaged in the Battle of Longwy on 22 August 1914. It then crossed the Meuse River and remained in the general Argonne area throughout 1915.

From January to July, 1916, was inline south east of the Ypres salient. During this period, the 27th gained control of the British trenches of Bluff and then lost them. On 2 June, the 27th (and the 26 Div.) attacked the Canadians in the Cillebeke sector and temporarily gained control of what came to be called "Observation Ridge"….a famous Canadian Battle, with both sides experiencing heavy losses. Further pressing the issue, the Canadians regained the ridge.

At the end of July, the 27th (actually the entire XIII Army Corps) was transferred to the Somme front where it remained thru March of 1917. In March, it was sent east of Cambrai/Artois area and, again, experienced heavy fighting/losses and remained there until August/September 1918. During September, 1918, the 27th moved back to the Meuse area and remained there for the war's duration.

The Allies Intelligence attributed the following in describing the 27th Division, "The 27th has always been considered on of the very best German divisions, and its conduct in the fighting during 1918 confirms it rating as a first-class shock unit. It suffered severely, especially in the spring, but not a grab deal later on. Its moves toward the end of the war seem to indicate that it was to form part of the reserve with which the Germans hoped to regain the initiative."

The above historical information was derived primarily from "Histories of Two Hunderd and Fifty-One Divisions of the German Army Which Participated in the War (1914-1918)" first published by the United States War Office in 1920.

Congrats, you have an interesting Luger from a unit with a remarkable history.

Ron

MetzMan · 11-01-2014, 01:41 PM

Ron,

It's 2617a

George Anderson · 11-01-2014, 01:53 PM

Mine is 2135a unit marked 19.U.3.14.

MetzMan · 11-01-2014, 01:59 PM

so, 1908? whats it worth do you think? i appreciate the info. i plan on holding onto it if the value makes it worthwhile.

Ron Wood · 11-01-2014, 02:03 PM

George Anderson could probably give you the best estimate since he has the "brother" gun!

George Anderson · 11-01-2014, 02:34 PM

I'm not clear from the earlier postings and photos as to the condition. Is it an all matching pistol or a marriage of an 08 commercial and 08 military?

MetzMan · 11-01-2014, 02:50 PM

the 2 numbers i see are 17 and 12. 56912 is located under the barrel, however 2617a is located at the underside of the receiver. I'm far from an expert, this is why i joined this forum.

George Anderson · 11-01-2014, 02:54 PM

As a "parts" gun it has a value of $900 or so as a shooter. If complete and original the value would be significantly more.

MetzMan · 11-01-2014, 03:12 PM

thanks George.. how would I find that out? reputable gunsmith or by posting better photos on here and getting feedback?

George Anderson · 11-01-2014, 03:27 PM

Better photos of all serial numbered parts posted here would be a start.

10-31-2014, 06:40 PM	#1
MetzMan User Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Loveland, OH Posts: 14 Thanks: 2 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	regiment/unit marking? I bought a German Luger with regiment markings that appear to read 19US10. Can someone shed some light on this?

11-01-2014, 09:31 AM	#7
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,035 Thanks: 1,106 Thanked 5,242 Times in 1,719 Posts	George, They are posted in Eric's (MetzMan) photo album. The bottom is very likely from a 1908 First Issue, and is marked for the 19 Ulan Regt., Eskadron 5, waffe 10,,,Ron (roadkill1) correctly identified it! The top is from a 1908 Commercial. It looks like the serial number is 55918. If so it was listed in Hans Tauscher's sales list from 1913 (courtesy of Dwight Gruber's commercial data base). __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

11-01-2014, 09:42 AM	#10
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,035 Thanks: 1,106 Thanked 5,242 Times in 1,719 Posts	Also can't quite make out the frame serial number...looks like it might be 14xx with an "a" suffix (1417a ?). That would put it in the 1908 First Issue military range, manufactured in 1909. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

11-01-2014, 02:03 PM	#15
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,035 Thanks: 1,106 Thanked 5,242 Times in 1,719 Posts	George Anderson could probably give you the best estimate since he has the "brother" gun! __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

10-31-2014, 07:50 PM	#2
roadkill1 Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Virginia Posts: 127 Thanks: 166 Thanked 129 Times in 63 Posts	Eric: Are you sure you listed your unit marking correctly on your post? Could it be "19.U.5.10."? If you could post a picture of your unit marking, that would be best to confirm. If I am correct, the complete unit name, in German, is, in German, "Ulanen-Regiment Konig Karl (Wurttembergisches) Nr. 19, 5. Eskadron, Waffe Nr. 10." The "rough" english designation would be 19th Ulan Regiment, 5th Squadron, 10 weapon (pistol). The name Ulan designates this unit as carrying Lances, and is categorized as part of their cavalry unit structure. If you can post a picture of the marking or confirm that what I suggested is how your Luger is exactly stamped on the front grip strap (the typical place a Luger is unit marked), I can provide a little information on this unit. Ron

11-01-2014, 07:56 AM	#3
MetzMan User Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Loveland, OH Posts: 14 Thanks: 2 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	You are right, I assumed it was an 'S'. It is indeed a '5'. I will list photos today as I am curious as to what exactly I have. I appreciate your response Ron.

11-01-2014, 08:41 AM	#4
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,531 Times in 788 Posts	Odds are that it is a 1908 first military without a hold-open. I've got its brother.

11-01-2014, 08:45 AM	#5
MetzMan User Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Loveland, OH Posts: 14 Thanks: 2 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I posted some photos George, does that help in any way? thank you...

11-01-2014, 09:37 AM	#8
MetzMan User Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Loveland, OH Posts: 14 Thanks: 2 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Sorry, the pics are not the best. It's 56912. Unfortunately, the serial number 17 also appears with 12. I don't know what this means exactly, related to value and origin.

11-01-2014, 09:41 AM	#9
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,962 Thanks: 2,063 Thanked 4,592 Times in 2,114 Posts	Just as a learning item for me, is the album more accessible or obvious than posting pictures in the thread? I know you can post larger pictures in the album, although John has made it where you can post larger photos that self shrink in the thread....

11-01-2014, 10:16 AM	#11
roadkill1 Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Virginia Posts: 127 Thanks: 166 Thanked 129 Times in 63 Posts	Eric: Still have not see the photos and photos of this Luger with the front grip strap depicting the unit marking is the best want to ensure that I have the correct marking. But assuming my unit marking is correct, this is an interesting history. As I indicated in my first posting, the complete unit destination as the Germans would have categorized it is "Ulanen-Regiment Konig Karl (Wurttembergisches) Nr. 19, 5. Eskadron, Waffe Nr. 10." The "rough" english designation would be 19th Ulan Regiment, 5th Squadron, 10 weapon (pistol). The name Ulan designates this unit as carrying Lances, and is categorized as part of their cavalry unit structure. This unit was founded on 9 July 1683 as a cavalry regiment with its headquarters and its five squadrons in Stuttgart. In 1889, this regiment was relocated with its headquarters, and squadrons 1,2 and 4 to Ulm and squadrons 2 and 5 to Wiblingen and placed under the operational control of the XIII Army Corps that was headquartered in Stuttgart. At the outbreak of WWI, the 19th Ulan Regiment was assigned to the 27th Infantry Division, XIII Army Corps (Royal Wurttemberg). As the war continued, various squadrons of the 19th Ulans were reassigned to other divisions but the 5th Squadron did remain assigned to the 27th Division for the entire war. In 1914, as part of the 5th Army (German Crown Prince) was initially engaged in the Battle of Longwy on 22 August 1914. It then crossed the Meuse River and remained in the general Argonne area throughout 1915. From January to July, 1916, was inline south east of the Ypres salient. During this period, the 27th gained control of the British trenches of Bluff and then lost them. On 2 June, the 27th (and the 26 Div.) attacked the Canadians in the Cillebeke sector and temporarily gained control of what came to be called "Observation Ridge"….a famous Canadian Battle, with both sides experiencing heavy losses. Further pressing the issue, the Canadians regained the ridge. At the end of July, the 27th (actually the entire XIII Army Corps) was transferred to the Somme front where it remained thru March of 1917. In March, it was sent east of Cambrai/Artois area and, again, experienced heavy fighting/losses and remained there until August/September 1918. During September, 1918, the 27th moved back to the Meuse area and remained there for the war's duration. The Allies Intelligence attributed the following in describing the 27th Division, "The 27th has always been considered on of the very best German divisions, and its conduct in the fighting during 1918 confirms it rating as a first-class shock unit. It suffered severely, especially in the spring, but not a grab deal later on. Its moves toward the end of the war seem to indicate that it was to form part of the reserve with which the Germans hoped to regain the initiative." The above historical information was derived primarily from "Histories of Two Hunderd and Fifty-One Divisions of the German Army Which Participated in the War (1914-1918)" first published by the United States War Office in 1920. Congrats, you have an interesting Luger from a unit with a remarkable history. Ron

11-01-2014, 01:41 PM	#12
MetzMan User Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Loveland, OH Posts: 14 Thanks: 2 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Ron, It's 2617a

11-01-2014, 01:53 PM	#13
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,531 Times in 788 Posts	Mine is 2135a unit marked 19.U.3.14.

11-01-2014, 01:59 PM	#14
MetzMan User Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Loveland, OH Posts: 14 Thanks: 2 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	so, 1908? whats it worth do you think? i appreciate the info. i plan on holding onto it if the value makes it worthwhile.

11-01-2014, 02:34 PM	#16
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,531 Times in 788 Posts	I'm not clear from the earlier postings and photos as to the condition. Is it an all matching pistol or a marriage of an 08 commercial and 08 military?

11-01-2014, 02:50 PM	#17
MetzMan User Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Loveland, OH Posts: 14 Thanks: 2 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	the 2 numbers i see are 17 and 12. 56912 is located under the barrel, however 2617a is located at the underside of the receiver. I'm far from an expert, this is why i joined this forum.

11-01-2014, 02:54 PM	#18
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,531 Times in 788 Posts	As a "parts" gun it has a value of $900 or so as a shooter. If complete and original the value would be significantly more.

11-01-2014, 03:12 PM	#19
MetzMan User Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Loveland, OH Posts: 14 Thanks: 2 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	thanks George.. how would I find that out? reputable gunsmith or by posting better photos on here and getting feedback?

11-01-2014, 03:27 PM	#20
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,531 Times in 788 Posts	Better photos of all serial numbered parts posted here would be a start.