WWII German 9mm Ammo

aldo35 · 05-13-2014, 06:04 PM

I purchase two cases of WWII German ammo in 1967/68 from a dealer in VT. The wooden cases contained 4160 rds packed as follows: 16 rounds per box, 52 boxes per cartons, 5 cartons per case. These rounds were functioned well in my P38, Colt Commander and various Lugers. The bullets were mfg in 1942 and were reportedly soft steel. The labeling translated to "only for machine pistols"

These cases were obtained from the Finns as there are several Finnish labels on the exterior and interior of the case. At the time I purchased the dealer thought the Finns received this ammo after WWII from the Allies and then exported them to the states.

The attached pictures show the case, cartons, labeling and bullets.

Aldo35

aldo35 · 05-13-2014, 06:09 PM

Some additional pictures

Aldo35

mrerick · 05-13-2014, 06:53 PM

Aren't rounds loaded "Stark" for Machine Guns at or above +P pressures?

I think we routinely advise against using these in WW-II handguns. That is also why it was labeled "use up only in machine-guns"...

These rounds were based upon standards adopted long before the days of NATO or SAAMI.

I'm glad they didn't cause any accidents.

MArc

aldo35 · 05-13-2014, 08:49 PM

Hi,

The only issue was an occasional misfire, probably 1 or 2 / 100rds. Some of these were feeding problems usually in the Lugers. Never a problem in a Smith 39 or Colt Commander.

Here is one more picture.

Aldo35

alanint · 05-13-2014, 08:54 PM

These rounds are loaded hot for open bolt SMGs such as the MP38, MP40, Berrettas, etc. and should NOT be used in pistols. You do so at some risk to the pistol and your person.

Edward Tinker · 05-13-2014, 09:37 PM

Very cool, I love it

alanint · 05-14-2014, 05:45 AM

Also, it is rare to find a case like this, even if half full. This ensemble is worth more to a collector as a fast disappearing example of how WW2 ammunition was packed and shipped than it is as plinking fodder.

If it were mine I would have preserved it exactly as I found it. 9mm is cheap enough again to buy modern stuff.

aldo35 · 05-14-2014, 07:09 AM

At the time this was purchased, 1967/8 it was $69.95 a case and at that price and time we shot most of it in local dumps and quarries at cans and bottles. We even used one of the cases as a target and discarded most of the cartons. The cartons you see in the case had fallen apart and I put back to together with 3M packing tape in order to give an impression of what they originally looked liked. They have gone thru 4 moves and a lot of handling. Each case was from a different mfg, dou and kam, the cartons are from each case as seen on labels. Perhaps someone on the forum can translate the German.

There is also some Finnish labels present.

I thought it is an interesting artifact from WWII and this was a good place to share. In hind sight I wish I hadn't shot so much of it up but it was fun at the time.

Aldo35

alanint · 05-14-2014, 07:58 AM

It makes sense now that you cleared up the time frame. We all bought up and shot surplus ammo back in the day. Spam cans of .45 ACP were dirt cheap. Our indulgence then is what makes all this sutff rare today.

sheepherder · 05-14-2014, 09:11 AM

From Google Translate -

nur in maschinenpistole verschiessen

- use up only in machine-gun

luftdichte patronenkasten

- airtight cartridge box

Edward Tinker · 05-14-2014, 03:52 PM

Aldo, same with me, I bought some steel cored WW2 ammo and not sure what it was (long gone), bought about 250-400 rounds from a guy in the 80's, they shot really nice through my artillery, would punch a hole through almost anything

Schutzenbob · 05-14-2014, 04:12 PM

You folks probably already know this, but copper jacketed bullets corrode to copper sulfate which doesn't seriously harm barrels, but the old German steel jacketed bullets, "stahl-mantel geschoss" rust to iron oxide and will destroy a barrel with as little as one shot. Just one more reason not to shoot that old ammo!

aldo35 · 05-14-2014, 05:44 PM

I have offered some of this ammo for sale in the WTS section
Aldo35

alanint · 05-14-2014, 05:48 PM

[QUOTE=sheepherder;254608]From Google Translate -

nur in maschinenpistole verschiessen

- use up only in machine-gun

More accurately "Machine Pistol", which is what we know as a SUB machinegun.

sheepherder · 05-15-2014, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alanint

Quote:

Originally Posted by sheepherder

From Google Translate -

nur in maschinenpistole verschiessen

- use up only in machine-gun

More accurately "Machine Pistol", which is what we know as a SUB machinegun.

Hey, don't jump on my ass! That's Google's translation!

And remember -

"...copper jacketed bullets corrode to copper sulfate which doesn't seriously harm barrels, but the old German steel jacketed bullets, "stahl-mantel geschoss" rust to iron oxide and will destroy a barrel with as little as one shot."

Ed says he's shot that old WWII ammunition and noted that as well...

jonnyc · 05-15-2014, 06:36 PM

Are any of you SURE that the word "only" is included in that translation?
It is "Pistolenpatronen 08" ammo, intended for both pistol and SMG use. I see nothing there to designate it SMG-Only! ammo.

sheepherder · 05-15-2014, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonnyc

Are any of you SURE that the word "only" is included in that translation?

"Nur" is 'only'...Or 'solely'...According to Langenscheidt...

Edward Tinker · 05-15-2014, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sheepherder

And remember -

"...copper jacketed bullets corrode to copper sulfate which doesn't seriously harm barrels, but the old German steel jacketed bullets, "stahl-mantel geschoss" rust to iron oxide and will destroy a barrel with as little as one shot."

Ed says he's shot that old WWII ammunition and noted that as well...

no, no, I said that I have shot hundreds of rounds of it and my barrels is still sharp and nice.

Maybe Erfurt artillerys are just better barrels than other crap

sheepherder · 05-15-2014, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward Tinker

no, no, I said that I have shot hundreds of rounds of it and my barrels is still sharp and nice.

I thought you said that you had shot that stuff and noticed a hole in the end of your barrel...

Schutzenbob · 05-15-2014, 09:06 PM

I guess I should qualify my comment; it's the old rusty steel bullets you don't want to shoot!

05-13-2014, 06:04 PM	#1
aldo35 User Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Northern GA Posts: 390 Thanks: 2,297 Thanked 184 Times in 91 Posts	WWII German 9mm Ammo I purchase two cases of WWII German ammo in 1967/68 from a dealer in VT. The wooden cases contained 4160 rds packed as follows: 16 rounds per box, 52 boxes per cartons, 5 cartons per case. These rounds were functioned well in my P38, Colt Commander and various Lugers. The bullets were mfg in 1942 and were reportedly soft steel. The labeling translated to "only for machine pistols" These cases were obtained from the Finns as there are several Finnish labels on the exterior and interior of the case. At the time I purchased the dealer thought the Finns received this ammo after WWII from the Allies and then exported them to the states. The attached pictures show the case, cartons, labeling and bullets. Aldo35 Attached Thumbnails

05-13-2014, 06:09 PM	#2
aldo35 User Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Northern GA Posts: 390 Thanks: 2,297 Thanked 184 Times in 91 Posts	WWII German 9mm Ammo Some additional pictures Aldo35 Attached Thumbnails

05-13-2014, 06:53 PM	#3
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,920 Thanks: 1,377 Thanked 3,135 Times in 1,518 Posts	Aren't rounds loaded "Stark" for Machine Guns at or above +P pressures? I think we routinely advise against using these in WW-II handguns. That is also why it was labeled "use up only in machine-guns"... These rounds were based upon standards adopted long before the days of NATO or SAAMI. I'm glad they didn't cause any accidents. MArc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

05-13-2014, 08:49 PM	#4
aldo35 User Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Northern GA Posts: 390 Thanks: 2,297 Thanked 184 Times in 91 Posts	WWII German 9mm Ammo Hi, The only issue was an occasional misfire, probably 1 or 2 / 100rds. Some of these were feeding problems usually in the Lugers. Never a problem in a Smith 39 or Colt Commander. Here is one more picture. Aldo35 Attached Thumbnails

05-13-2014, 09:37 PM	#6
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,963 Thanks: 2,064 Thanked 4,593 Times in 2,115 Posts	Very cool, I love it __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

05-13-2014, 08:54 PM	#5
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,917 Times in 1,193 Posts	These rounds are loaded hot for open bolt SMGs such as the MP38, MP40, Berrettas, etc. and should NOT be used in pistols. You do so at some risk to the pistol and your person.

05-14-2014, 05:45 AM	#7
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,917 Times in 1,193 Posts	Also, it is rare to find a case like this, even if half full. This ensemble is worth more to a collector as a fast disappearing example of how WW2 ammunition was packed and shipped than it is as plinking fodder. If it were mine I would have preserved it exactly as I found it. 9mm is cheap enough again to buy modern stuff.

05-14-2014, 07:09 AM	#8
aldo35 User Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Northern GA Posts: 390 Thanks: 2,297 Thanked 184 Times in 91 Posts	WWII German 9mm Ammo At the time this was purchased, 1967/8 it was $69.95 a case and at that price and time we shot most of it in local dumps and quarries at cans and bottles. We even used one of the cases as a target and discarded most of the cartons. The cartons you see in the case had fallen apart and I put back to together with 3M packing tape in order to give an impression of what they originally looked liked. They have gone thru 4 moves and a lot of handling. Each case was from a different mfg, dou and kam, the cartons are from each case as seen on labels. Perhaps someone on the forum can translate the German. There is also some Finnish labels present. I thought it is an interesting artifact from WWII and this was a good place to share. In hind sight I wish I hadn't shot so much of it up but it was fun at the time. Aldo35

05-14-2014, 07:58 AM	#9
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,917 Times in 1,193 Posts	It makes sense now that you cleared up the time frame. We all bought up and shot surplus ammo back in the day. Spam cans of .45 ACP were dirt cheap. Our indulgence then is what makes all this sutff rare today.

05-14-2014, 09:11 AM	#10
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,196 Thanks: 1,416 Thanked 4,462 Times in 2,336 Posts	From Google Translate - nur in maschinenpistole verschiessen - use up only in machine-gun luftdichte patronenkasten - airtight cartridge box __________________ I like my coffee the way I like my women... ...Cold and bitter...

05-14-2014, 03:52 PM	#11
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,963 Thanks: 2,064 Thanked 4,593 Times in 2,115 Posts	Aldo, same with me, I bought some steel cored WW2 ammo and not sure what it was (long gone), bought about 250-400 rounds from a guy in the 80's, they shot really nice through my artillery, would punch a hole through almost anything

05-14-2014, 04:12 PM	#12
Schutzenbob User Join Date: Mar 2013 Posts: 53 Thanks: 108 Thanked 61 Times in 19 Posts	You folks probably already know this, but copper jacketed bullets corrode to copper sulfate which doesn't seriously harm barrels, but the old German steel jacketed bullets, "stahl-mantel geschoss" rust to iron oxide and will destroy a barrel with as little as one shot. Just one more reason not to shoot that old ammo!

05-14-2014, 05:44 PM	#13
aldo35 User Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Northern GA Posts: 390 Thanks: 2,297 Thanked 184 Times in 91 Posts	WWII German 9mm Ammo I have offered some of this ammo for sale in the WTS section Aldo35

05-14-2014, 05:48 PM	#14
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,917 Times in 1,193 Posts	[QUOTE=sheepherder;254608]From Google Translate - nur in maschinenpistole verschiessen - use up only in machine-gun More accurately "Machine Pistol", which is what we know as a SUB machinegun.

05-15-2014, 06:36 PM	#16
jonnyc User Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 425 Thanks: 2 Thanked 46 Times in 34 Posts	Are any of you SURE that the word "only" is included in that translation? It is "Pistolenpatronen 08" ammo, intended for both pistol and SMG use. I see nothing there to designate it SMG-Only! ammo.

05-15-2014, 09:06 PM	#20
Schutzenbob User Join Date: Mar 2013 Posts: 53 Thanks: 108 Thanked 61 Times in 19 Posts	I guess I should qualify my comment; it's the old rusty steel bullets you don't want to shoot!