Simson Suhl Luger

Andre' · 11-28-2012, 09:51 PM

Hello,

Looks like I'm sold (almost) on my very first Luger. It's going to be a very nice, all orginal, matching number luger, and I'm excited! The only issue, and might be fine given the overall rarity of these lugers, is the fact that the mags are not numbered to the gun. But other than that everything looks just great. I'll share some pitures as soon as the package has been delivered.

Here is my question - I'm planning on putting her up and this purchase will be more like an investment. Since the mags are not matching I'm somewhat concerned that "collectability" isn't as good vs. an all number matching model complete with mags and holster.

But I really like this model luger especially since it is made by Simson, and Simson has a long history of making firearms (would be a perfect match to our Prussion Potsdam manufactured in 1844 by Simson/Suhl).

However, your input will be greatly appreciated and maybe there is somebody present in this forum knowing all there is to know about Simson Suhl & Co.? Thanks!

mrerick · 11-28-2012, 10:21 PM

Post some pictures...

We have a Simson expert on the forum.

All matching with incorrect magazine is not so much of an issue, but does drop value some.

Is the magazine a Simson mag?

Bigger issues for investment consideration are:

- Originality of finish
- All matching parts (all Simson parts were E/6 or E/33 proofed, right down to the screws)
- Condition

Before buying this, I would invest the time to study Simson Lugers. Ed Tinker has a great book on them.

Marc

Andre' · 11-28-2012, 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrerick

Post some pictures...

We have a Simson expert on the forum.

All matching with incorrect magazine is not so much of an issue, but does drop value some.

Is the magazine a Simson mag?

Bigger issues for investment consideration are:

- Originality of finish
- All matching parts (all Simson parts were E/6 or E/33 proofed, right down to the screws)
- Condition

Before buying this, I would invest the time to study Simson Lugers. Ed Tinker has a great book on them.

Marc

Thanks, Marc. Good to know there are experts available! The mags are original; they are marked with an E/6. The rest of the gun has E/6 and E/33 marks all over. I understand Simson was a very unique manufacturer and pretty much everything has been proof marked on their guns - I have been promised this luger is "number matching inside and outside"!

The finish is great - only some minor wear. I've seen people use %age #'s to describe the finish but these numbers vary from person-to-person and are very subjective.

Thanks

mrerick · 11-28-2012, 10:58 PM

With only about 12,000 made over Simson & Co.'s history, they are one of the most unique and rare of Lugers.

Most don't value them as highly as the Krieghoff pistols. I particularly like Simson - partially because of their unique history as well.

Marc

Edward Tinker · 11-28-2012, 11:45 PM

I hate hearing "investment" that usually means the person is looking for a pretty gun and I don't trust many pretty guns.

See if you can get pictures before buying.

See if the stock lug is numbered to the gun.

And having a matching mag is a big plus, not expected.

What is the serial number?

Andre' · 11-28-2012, 11:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward Tinker

I hate hearing "investment" that usually means the person is looking for a pretty gun and I don't trust many pretty guns.

See if you can get pictures before buying.

See if the stock lug is numbered to the gun.

And having a matching mag is a big plus, not expected.

What is the serial number?

Thanks, the ser# is 5412. Pictures are available online from seller - I haven't been able to take pictures myself since the transaction is still pending. Don't know for sure about the stock lug but the seller appears to be very trustworthy so my answer would be "yes".

Edward Tinker · 11-29-2012, 12:33 AM

This has been on three websites since I started my database.

From the Simpson LTD website I copied the following information, it is possible that the later sellers do not know this information:

5412
e6 E6 E33 E6 E
possible reblue, now on Simpson's...

That info will be in our new Police Lugers book coming out next week...

Andre' · 11-29-2012, 07:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward Tinker

This has been on three websites since I started my database.

From the Simpson LTD website I copied the following information, it is possible that the later sellers do not know this information:

5412
e6 E6 E33 E6 E
possible reblue, now on Simpson's...

That info will be in our new Police Lugers book coming out next week...

Thanks! Interesting - this information is listed on the Simpson LTD website? I'm have been offered this gun from a different source...

alanint · 11-29-2012, 08:22 AM

And take very seriously into account the "possible reblue" when negotiating price!!!

sheepherder · 11-29-2012, 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrerick

All matching with incorrect magazine is not so much of an issue, but does drop value some.

Marc, I've seen this posted here before, and I have to take issue...

I don't think any Luger can be expected to have a matching magazine...If it does, it may add to the value (to a collector), but IMHO an unmatched magazine does not detract from the value...

Just my $.02, and worth every penny...

alanint · 11-29-2012, 10:18 AM

And sometimes adds! I've sold off rare magazines, which came from run of the mill shooters for almost as much as the purchase price of the pistol!

wlyon · 11-29-2012, 10:37 AM

The matching mag bit is interesting. When I started collecting 45 or so years ago matching mags were very uncommon. Now they seem to be very common. I wonder why? Bill

sheepherder · 11-29-2012, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wlyon

the matching mag bit is interesting. When i started collecting 45 or so years ago matching mags were very uncommon. Now they seem to be very common. I wonder why? Bill

...

...

mrerick · 11-29-2012, 11:24 AM

Rich, I agree that it is most unusual to find a matching Luger with it's one or two matching magazines. In general, this seems to add considerably to the value of the "rig".

So... the I think best way to think of the matching magazine is that it is unusual, and that it adds to the value of an all matching Luger.

Still the same effect. Value of matching Luger with unmatched magazine generally less than value of matching Luger with matched magazine(s), unless something happens to you like Doug's experience...

I once bought a shooter with what I thought was a police magazine. Turned out that it was a police aluminum base married to the wrong tube... Oh well!

- - - - - -

On the faking that you point out, I'm beginning to think that the only way to fight it is to start documenting provenance as soon as possible through a central database. Ownership; detail photos; descriptions; unique characteristics. With the new comprehensive Sturgess publication, the fakes are going to probably get even more accurate.

Marc

alanint · 11-29-2012, 11:30 AM

Like those who collect Nazi medals and memorabilia.

Advanced collectors will no longer buy anything, unless it is directly out of a Vet's estate. The fakes are plentiful and well done.

Andre' · 11-29-2012, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward Tinker

This has been on three websites since I started my database.

From the Simpson LTD website I copied the following information, it is possible that the later sellers do not know this information:

5412
e6 E6 E33 E6 E
possible reblue, now on Simpson's...

That info will be in our new Police Lugers book coming out next week...

As per the seller the gun is all original - no reblue! There will be an inspection period for me to determine whether or not the gun matches the description - how can I determine a gun has been reblued? I don't think I have the experience...

mrerick · 11-29-2012, 08:43 PM

Now, there's where the study, investment in time and travel, and the judgement comes in... It's something I refer to as "Luger University" and it doesn't come cheap.

You could hire someone to appraise it.

You could post well shot photos here, but that is somewhat risky since it's hard to give finish estimates from photographs.

You've been describing a mid to higher end investment Luger. As the prices go up, the interest in faking things goes up proportionally. Thus, so does the risk.

So, unable to judge, I would not pay more than a reblue is worth, unless I could confirm it's original finish.

Marc

Andre' · 11-29-2012, 09:33 PM

[QUOTE=mrerick;224133]Now, there's where the study, investment in time and travel, and the judgement comes in... It's something I refer to as "Luger University" and it doesn't come cheap.

Unfortunately, well all start somewhere not knowing nothing at all. That's where I found myself today. I spent all last weekend reading about lugers, and my wife wasn't too thrilled about it... However, I bought the online version of Aarron Davis's book "Standard Cataloge of Lugers". Very interesting, I learned a lot but the more I read the more I knew that I don't really know anything. I'm sure you've experienced that feeling sometimes in the past...

For somebody like me it's not justifyable to just travel up North to look at a gun especially with my expertise. And I don't really know anybody that is really into Lugers - until I found this forum! Which I'm glad I did!

I don't know if it would be appropriate to include a link to his website where this luger is shown? Please advise.

sheepherder · 11-29-2012, 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andre'

I don't know if it would be appropriate to include a link to his website where this luger is shown? Please advise.

Just copy his pics to your HDD and then attach them to this thread...

Edward Tinker · 11-29-2012, 09:39 PM

I would suggest you read the reviews on Aaron's book first, as there are many mistakes in it.

I am curious to know where you are seeing this luger, as my records show just the places it has been, not by date....

11-28-2012, 09:51 PM	#1
Andre' User Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: South East Posts: 33 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Simson Suhl Luger Hello, Looks like I'm sold (almost) on my very first Luger. It's going to be a very nice, all orginal, matching number luger, and I'm excited! The only issue, and might be fine given the overall rarity of these lugers, is the fact that the mags are not numbered to the gun. But other than that everything looks just great. I'll share some pitures as soon as the package has been delivered. Here is my question - I'm planning on putting her up and this purchase will be more like an investment. Since the mags are not matching I'm somewhat concerned that "collectability" isn't as good vs. an all number matching model complete with mags and holster. But I really like this model luger especially since it is made by Simson, and Simson has a long history of making firearms (would be a perfect match to our Prussion Potsdam manufactured in 1844 by Simson/Suhl). However, your input will be greatly appreciated and maybe there is somebody present in this forum knowing all there is to know about Simson Suhl & Co.? Thanks!

11-28-2012, 10:21 PM	#2
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,925 Thanks: 1,377 Thanked 3,139 Times in 1,520 Posts	Post some pictures... We have a Simson expert on the forum. All matching with incorrect magazine is not so much of an issue, but does drop value some. Is the magazine a Simson mag? Bigger issues for investment consideration are: - Originality of finish - All matching parts (all Simson parts were E/6 or E/33 proofed, right down to the screws) - Condition Before buying this, I would invest the time to study Simson Lugers. Ed Tinker has a great book on them. Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

11-28-2012, 10:58 PM	#4
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,925 Thanks: 1,377 Thanked 3,139 Times in 1,520 Posts	With only about 12,000 made over Simson & Co.'s history, they are one of the most unique and rare of Lugers. Most don't value them as highly as the Krieghoff pistols. I particularly like Simson - partially because of their unique history as well. Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

11-28-2012, 11:45 PM	#5
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,974 Thanks: 2,072 Thanked 4,607 Times in 2,123 Posts	I hate hearing "investment" that usually means the person is looking for a pretty gun and I don't trust many pretty guns. See if you can get pictures before buying. See if the stock lug is numbered to the gun. And having a matching mag is a big plus, not expected. What is the serial number? __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

11-29-2012, 12:33 AM	#7
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,974 Thanks: 2,072 Thanked 4,607 Times in 2,123 Posts	This has been on three websites since I started my database. From the Simpson LTD website I copied the following information, it is possible that the later sellers do not know this information: 5412 e6 E6 E33 E6 E possible reblue, now on Simpson's... That info will be in our new Police Lugers book coming out next week... __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

11-29-2012, 08:22 AM	#9
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,917 Times in 1,193 Posts	And take very seriously into account the "possible reblue" when negotiating price!!!

11-29-2012, 10:18 AM	#11
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,917 Times in 1,193 Posts	And sometimes adds! I've sold off rare magazines, which came from run of the mill shooters for almost as much as the purchase price of the pistol!

11-29-2012, 10:37 AM	#12
wlyon Lifer 2X Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: May 2005 Location: Somewhere in Montana Posts: 2,673 Thanks: 3,243 Thanked 2,658 Times in 988 Posts	The matching mag bit is interesting. When I started collecting 45 or so years ago matching mags were very uncommon. Now they seem to be very common. I wonder why? Bill __________________ Bill Lyon

11-29-2012, 11:24 AM	#14
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,925 Thanks: 1,377 Thanked 3,139 Times in 1,520 Posts	Rich, I agree that it is most unusual to find a matching Luger with it's one or two matching magazines. In general, this seems to add considerably to the value of the "rig". So... the I think best way to think of the matching magazine is that it is unusual, and that it adds to the value of an all matching Luger. Still the same effect. Value of matching Luger with unmatched magazine generally less than value of matching Luger with matched magazine(s), unless something happens to you like Doug's experience... I once bought a shooter with what I thought was a police magazine. Turned out that it was a police aluminum base married to the wrong tube... Oh well! - - - - - - On the faking that you point out, I'm beginning to think that the only way to fight it is to start documenting provenance as soon as possible through a central database. Ownership; detail photos; descriptions; unique characteristics. With the new comprehensive Sturgess publication, the fakes are going to probably get even more accurate. Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

11-29-2012, 11:30 AM	#15
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,917 Times in 1,193 Posts	Like those who collect Nazi medals and memorabilia. Advanced collectors will no longer buy anything, unless it is directly out of a Vet's estate. The fakes are plentiful and well done.

11-29-2012, 08:43 PM	#17
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,925 Thanks: 1,377 Thanked 3,139 Times in 1,520 Posts	Now, there's where the study, investment in time and travel, and the judgement comes in... It's something I refer to as "Luger University" and it doesn't come cheap. You could hire someone to appraise it. You could post well shot photos here, but that is somewhat risky since it's hard to give finish estimates from photographs. You've been describing a mid to higher end investment Luger. As the prices go up, the interest in faking things goes up proportionally. Thus, so does the risk. So, unable to judge, I would not pay more than a reblue is worth, unless I could confirm it's original finish. Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

11-29-2012, 09:33 PM	#18
Andre' User Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: South East Posts: 33 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	[QUOTE=mrerick;224133]Now, there's where the study, investment in time and travel, and the judgement comes in... It's something I refer to as "Luger University" and it doesn't come cheap. Unfortunately, well all start somewhere not knowing nothing at all. That's where I found myself today. I spent all last weekend reading about lugers, and my wife wasn't too thrilled about it... However, I bought the online version of Aarron Davis's book "Standard Cataloge of Lugers". Very interesting, I learned a lot but the more I read the more I knew that I don't really know anything. I'm sure you've experienced that feeling sometimes in the past... For somebody like me it's not justifyable to just travel up North to look at a gun especially with my expertise. And I don't really know anybody that is really into Lugers - until I found this forum! Which I'm glad I did! I don't know if it would be appropriate to include a link to his website where this luger is shown? Please advise.

11-29-2012, 09:39 PM	#20
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,974 Thanks: 2,072 Thanked 4,607 Times in 2,123 Posts	I would suggest you read the reviews on Aaron's book first, as there are many mistakes in it. I am curious to know where you are seeing this luger, as my records show just the places it has been, not by date.... __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV