Why no love for this 1902 AE?

Michael Zeleny · 04-28-2012, 05:36 PM

This GB lot looks to me like a genuine, 70% Cartridge counter:
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=283376406
The Blue Book usually lags behind the market:

98% $45,150
95% $38,600
90% $30,100
80% $20,450
70% $14,800
60% $12,825

What am I missing?

Norme · 04-28-2012, 05:51 PM

Hi Michael, You're missing the link! Regards, Norm

Michael Zeleny · 04-28-2012, 05:54 PM

OK, I made it explicit.

sheepherder · 04-28-2012, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norme

Hi Michael, You're missing the link! Regards, Norm

(psst...click on "this GB lot"...)

Aw, shoot...We could have made Norm squirm...

alvin · 04-28-2012, 05:59 PM

This counter lost the key component: the grip counter. Paying 5-digit and restoring it? Probably not for most people.

Ron Wood · 04-28-2012, 06:00 PM

The link is there, just click on "This GB lot". The gun is missing the extractor and toggle lock. It looks like it has a real CC magazine that might be missing the guts. This is a known number that has been around for a long time, but I never had any report on its condition, so I don't know if this is the same gun. The frame serial number looks a little hinkey, but CC frame serial numbers generally are stamped a bit helter-skelter. I would need photos of the top of the magazine and perhaps more pics of the internals of the gun. It might be a good gun and a diamond in the rough, or it may be a reworked '02 Fat Barrel. It will be interesting to see if it sells and what it takes to meet the reserve. Looks kinda promising.

Michael Zeleny · 04-28-2012, 06:05 PM

Unlike the grip counter, the extractor and toggle lock are easily replaceable with correct unnumbered parts. So the pistol still seems underappreciated to me.

Norme · 04-28-2012, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Zeleny

OK, I made it explicit.

Thanks Michael! My kids call me "pre digital man". Regards, Norm

Ron Wood · 04-28-2012, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Zeleny

Unlike the grip counter, the extractor and toggle lock are easily replaceable with correct unnumbered parts. So the pistol still seems underappreciated to me.

I would have to agree. If it is genuine, at the current price it is seriously underapprecated.

Michael Zeleny · 04-28-2012, 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Wood

I would have to agree. If it is genuine, at the current price it is seriously underapprecated.

A big if, whence my inquiry.

Ron Wood · 04-28-2012, 07:52 PM

Ah yes, the big if. That is one of those tantalizing guns that I would love to have in hand for an hour or two. There is so much that needs to be scrutinized. Trying to validate a piece like this from photographs is like trying to negotiate a minefield with a blindfold on. You might make it through to the beautiful maiden in the tower, but you are just as likely to get your caboose blown off.

CJS57 · 04-28-2012, 09:15 PM

Help! How do we tell it is a cartridge counter? I have 1902 Fat Barrel 9mm serial 22951 that is matching including grips, and has no missing parts but is not a cartridge counter to the best of my knowledge? How do we tell?

Ron Wood · 04-28-2012, 09:19 PM

Cartridge Counter serial numbers run in a specific range, 22401 to 22450.

lugersrkewl · 04-28-2012, 10:53 PM

cartridge counters have slots cut in the grips too see how many bullets left

Ron Wood · 04-29-2012, 12:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lugersrkewl

cartridge counters have slots cut in the grips too see how many bullets left

Yes, in addition to the missing extractor and toggle lock, that is the most significant piece missing on this gun. I have seen CC magazines come up for sale from time to time, but I have never seen an original CC grip offered for sale. To restore this gun (if it is a real one) you would have to have a grip made up from scratch.

Michael Zeleny · 04-29-2012, 01:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Wood

To restore this gun (if it is a real one) you would have to have a grip made up from scratch.

Not quite.
http://www.egun.de/market/item.php?id=3840427

alanint · 04-29-2012, 07:18 AM

The original ad posted by Michael claims the gun has "original grips" on it? It falls within the correct serial number range, so how could these grips be "originals"?

alvin · 04-29-2012, 08:21 AM

I noticed there are many tricks in gun advertisements. For example, "98%" without key word "original", or "original" without key word "matching", or just posting some pictures with minimum text description, "I don't know, you tell me" -

Since it lost the original windowed grip panel, I would think it's a regular 1902 fat barrel with mismatched grip panels.... probably plus some amount due to the s/n.

Is the situation like a "Party Leader" PPK without the eagle grips, except the s/n range being known in this scenario?

CJS57 · 04-29-2012, 08:45 AM

Shatuck would have known what to do with it!

Vlim · 04-29-2012, 08:55 AM

The grips on Egun were made for a Mauser Parabellum commemorative, and will not fit on a DWM frame.

04-28-2012, 05:36 PM	#1
Michael Zeleny Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 525 Thanks: 129 Thanked 138 Times in 76 Posts	Why no love for this 1902 AE? This GB lot looks to me like a genuine, 70% Cartridge counter: http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=283376406 The Blue Book usually lags behind the market: 98% $45,150 95% $38,600 90% $30,100 80% $20,450 70% $14,800 60% $12,825 What am I missing? __________________ Michael Zeleny@post.harvard.edu -- http://larvatus.livejournal.com/ -- 7576 Willow Glen Road, Los Angeles, CA 90046 -- 323.363.1860 All of old. Nothing else ever. Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better. -- Samuel Beckett

04-28-2012, 05:54 PM	#3
Michael Zeleny Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 525 Thanks: 129 Thanked 138 Times in 76 Posts	OK, I made it explicit. __________________ Michael Zeleny@post.harvard.edu -- http://larvatus.livejournal.com/ -- 7576 Willow Glen Road, Los Angeles, CA 90046 -- 323.363.1860 All of old. Nothing else ever. Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better. -- Samuel Beckett

04-28-2012, 06:00 PM	#6
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,988 Thanks: 1,067 Thanked 5,099 Times in 1,676 Posts	The link is there, just click on "This GB lot". The gun is missing the extractor and toggle lock. It looks like it has a real CC magazine that might be missing the guts. This is a known number that has been around for a long time, but I never had any report on its condition, so I don't know if this is the same gun. The frame serial number looks a little hinkey, but CC frame serial numbers generally are stamped a bit helter-skelter. I would need photos of the top of the magazine and perhaps more pics of the internals of the gun. It might be a good gun and a diamond in the rough, or it may be a reworked '02 Fat Barrel. It will be interesting to see if it sells and what it takes to meet the reserve. Looks kinda promising. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

04-28-2012, 06:05 PM	#7
Michael Zeleny Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 525 Thanks: 129 Thanked 138 Times in 76 Posts	Unlike the grip counter, the extractor and toggle lock are easily replaceable with correct unnumbered parts. So the pistol still seems underappreciated to me. __________________ Michael Zeleny@post.harvard.edu -- http://larvatus.livejournal.com/ -- 7576 Willow Glen Road, Los Angeles, CA 90046 -- 323.363.1860 All of old. Nothing else ever. Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better. -- Samuel Beckett

04-28-2012, 07:52 PM	#11
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,988 Thanks: 1,067 Thanked 5,099 Times in 1,676 Posts	Ah yes, the big if. That is one of those tantalizing guns that I would love to have in hand for an hour or two. There is so much that needs to be scrutinized. Trying to validate a piece like this from photographs is like trying to negotiate a minefield with a blindfold on. You might make it through to the beautiful maiden in the tower, but you are just as likely to get your caboose blown off. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

04-28-2012, 05:51 PM	#2
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,415 Thanks: 225 Thanked 2,594 Times in 931 Posts	Hi Michael, You're missing the link! Regards, Norm

04-28-2012, 05:59 PM	#5
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	This counter lost the key component: the grip counter. Paying 5-digit and restoring it? Probably not for most people.

04-28-2012, 09:15 PM	#12
CJS57 User Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 224 Thanks: 0 Thanked 81 Times in 41 Posts	Help! How do we tell it is a cartridge counter? I have 1902 Fat Barrel 9mm serial 22951 that is matching including grips, and has no missing parts but is not a cartridge counter to the best of my knowledge? How do we tell?

04-28-2012, 09:19 PM	#13
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,988 Thanks: 1,067 Thanked 5,099 Times in 1,676 Posts	Cartridge Counter serial numbers run in a specific range, 22401 to 22450. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

04-28-2012, 10:53 PM	#14
lugersrkewl Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Ussr Posts: 425 Thanks: 198 Thanked 75 Times in 58 Posts	cartridge counters have slots cut in the grips too see how many bullets left

04-29-2012, 07:18 AM	#17
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	The original ad posted by Michael claims the gun has "original grips" on it? It falls within the correct serial number range, so how could these grips be "originals"?

04-29-2012, 08:21 AM	#18
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	I noticed there are many tricks in gun advertisements. For example, "98%" without key word "original", or "original" without key word "matching", or just posting some pictures with minimum text description, "I don't know, you tell me" - Since it lost the original windowed grip panel, I would think it's a regular 1902 fat barrel with mismatched grip panels.... probably plus some amount due to the s/n. Is the situation like a "Party Leader" PPK without the eagle grips, except the s/n range being known in this scenario?

04-29-2012, 08:45 AM	#19
CJS57 User Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 224 Thanks: 0 Thanked 81 Times in 41 Posts	Shatuck would have known what to do with it!

04-29-2012, 08:55 AM	#20
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,046 Thanks: 1,034 Thanked 3,946 Times in 1,197 Posts	The grips on Egun were made for a Mauser Parabellum commemorative, and will not fit on a DWM frame.