Erma KGP 69 (.22 LR Luger imitation)

TheRomanhistorian · 01-18-2012, 08:10 PM

Hello everyone,

I just recently purchased (but have not yet picked up) an Erma KGP 69. It was a moment of weakness and it was in good condition. Only one magazine but it is original to the pistol and I've been looking up information on it. I know the Erma .22 pistols are not generally well-regarded but I had read elsewhere the KGP models are somewhat better quality and are more reliable.

My question is more of ammunition, I've seen some that suggest high velocity (CCI Mini Mags, rounded lead) and others which suggest not using any high velocity and to go with standard velocity like perhaps CCI or Federal bulk pack ammunition. Does anyone have any suggestions? I tried to search but did not find much information here on ammunition recommendations.

Best,

Michael

coverk · 01-18-2012, 09:40 PM

I have a KGP 69 magazine I would like to sell. If you are interested, I would like $40.00 shipped.

It is in very good shape.

Thanks

Ken

Lugerdoc · 01-19-2012, 09:10 AM

Michael, I find that the Ermas perfer the standard valocity .22 ammo, vise the Hv that are necessary in the Stoegers. I also have exc used original mags for your Erma @$35 or new @$50 + S&H. TH

TheRomanhistorian · 01-19-2012, 10:43 AM

Thanks Ken and Tom for the offers, I'll take the pistol to the range and see if I like it (and if it works) before I get another magazine. I'm quite curious to see how well it works (if it works at all).

I'll give the standard velocity ammunition a try then, Tom. I had just heard sometimes hotter ammo would make the Ermas more reliable but I'd hate to lead to even more wear and tear on these things. Thanks for the suggestion!

ithacaartist · 01-19-2012, 01:30 PM

Hi Michael,
I generally agree with the idea of avoiding hv .22lr ammo because it was not around when these pistols were designed. However, as discussed on another post, CCI Mini-Mags--which are copper plated 40 gr. round-nose solids--definitely perform the best so far in my La .22's. I arrived at this by trying standard velocity stuff first, and found their energy insufficient to cycle the action fully. I went beyond Mini-mags in muzzle velocity rating, with Velocitor, and finally Stinger, which have 32 gr. bullets and 1600-something fps, and wound up with a front toggle link in 3 pieces. Replaced broken part and have stayed away from loads any more energetic than the mini-mags, no problems further. Feed issues are another realm, but it would appear you've been reading the forum about Ermas already, so I'll quit for now.

David Parker

ithacaartist · 01-19-2012, 01:30 PM

Hi Michael,
I generally agree with the idea of avoiding hv .22lr ammo because it was not around when these pistols were designed. However, as discussed on another post, CCI Mini-Mags--which are copper plated 40 gr. round-nose solids--definitely perform the best so far in my La .22's. I arrived at this by trying standard velocity stuff first, and found their energy insufficient to cycle the action fully. I went beyond Mini-mags in muzzle velocity rating, with Velocitor, and finally Stinger, which have 32 gr. bullets and 1600-something fps, and wound up with a front toggle link in 3 pieces. Replaced broken part and have stayed away from loads any more energetic than the mini-mags, no problems further. Feed issues are another realm, but it would appear you've been reading the forum about Ermas already, so I'll quit for now.

David Parker

TheRomanhistorian · 01-23-2012, 03:28 PM

Ok, an update:

I'll try and get a photo up at some point (trying to find my 'good' camera) but I took my KGP-69 to the range on Saturday. I had picked it up on Friday from my local shop, cleaned it, and oiled it. I picked up some CCI Tactical ammunition (.22LR at 1200 fps, $26 for 375 rounds). I have not tried standard velocity but had heard from others that they would not work the action very well so I wanted to try something that was marginally less high velocity than Mini Mags (at 1235 fps). The Tacticals are copper plated round nose 40 grain and I had no problems with stovepipes or failures to fire, eject, or anything else. Worked like a charm.

I went down to my local range on Saturday and put 120 rounds through my Erma KGP-69 (it is smaller than an actual Luger and smaller than the LA22 or EP22 or earlier Erma models). This thing is bloody heavy for its size, whilst the grip and part of the frame are alloy I found the barrel, receiver, toggle assembly, and the rest were steel (there was a magnetic attraction). It's quite heavy considering how tiny it looked when I first picked it up. I put 120 rounds through the pistol in an hour and had fairly good groupings and there was hardly any recoil, as to be expected. It's a fun little plinker and I wish there was something in between standard velocity and this 1200 fps stuff, though. I'll try some standard velocity next time if I can find a small box in case it doesn't work well.

I either got lucky or maybe the KGP-69 .22 LR is far more reliable than the full size .22 variants. My serial number incidentally is 311644 and I paid $299.99 for it.

Michael

rhuff · 01-23-2012, 04:00 PM

Michael,

Congrats on finding a .22 cal cartridge that will function in your Erma. That is a real win in my books. Now, you can experiment with other .22 ammo to see if there is a lower velocity ammo that will function also.....knowing that you have one that will work in case the others don't work.

ithacaartist · 01-24-2012, 01:31 PM

Michael,
I think this was an OK price. I've seen plenty listed for more, like $4-600, and they are not all necessarily minty. I have a limit of around $225-250 for any other La .22's I might find, seeking this because they are such a crapshoot concerning function. The diecast parts definitely detract from one's confidence in the things (Don't forget, I already broke one of the wimpy front toggles--right where there is an obvious lack of structure/beefiness.) and I would also shell out more for the Ermas with more steel in them. I believe the Ep's share this aspect with the KGP, so I'm anticipating trying them both, eventually.
Let us know your results with the standard velocity!
David Parker

TheRomanhistorian · 02-06-2012, 10:36 PM

Hi everyone, here's a photo of the Erma next to my newest acquisition.

It is distinctly smaller than its 'real' brother. I'll try and get more photos later, I have a guest on the way so no time now!

minigun · 02-10-2012, 09:08 PM

My Dad had one of these when I was real young. The story of it is not a good one. My Dad loved to shoot it, but then one day as I remember, the gun fired full auto. Something had happened inside, but I don't know what. My Dad had every intention of getting it fixed, but then a burglar struck and we never saw the gun again. So, who knows what ever happened to it. My Dad used to laugh and say that he hoped whoever got it that it would blow up in their face.

Just a little story on another one of these guns.

01-18-2012, 08:10 PM	#1
TheRomanhistorian User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 301 Thanks: 170 Thanked 88 Times in 64 Posts	Erma KGP 69 (.22 LR Luger imitation) Hello everyone, I just recently purchased (but have not yet picked up) an Erma KGP 69. It was a moment of weakness and it was in good condition. Only one magazine but it is original to the pistol and I've been looking up information on it. I know the Erma .22 pistols are not generally well-regarded but I had read elsewhere the KGP models are somewhat better quality and are more reliable. My question is more of ammunition, I've seen some that suggest high velocity (CCI Mini Mags, rounded lead) and others which suggest not using any high velocity and to go with standard velocity like perhaps CCI or Federal bulk pack ammunition. Does anyone have any suggestions? I tried to search but did not find much information here on ammunition recommendations. Best, Michael

01-19-2012, 09:10 AM	#3
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 737 Times in 484 Posts	Michael, I find that the Ermas perfer the standard valocity .22 ammo, vise the Hv that are necessary in the Stoegers. I also have exc used original mags for your Erma @$35 or new @$50 + S&H. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

02-06-2012, 10:36 PM	#10
TheRomanhistorian User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 301 Thanks: 170 Thanked 88 Times in 64 Posts	Hi everyone, here's a photo of the Erma next to my newest acquisition. It is distinctly smaller than its 'real' brother. I'll try and get more photos later, I have a guest on the way so no time now! Attached Thumbnails

01-18-2012, 09:40 PM	#2
coverk User Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Central Wisconsin Posts: 34 Thanks: 4 Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts	I have a KGP 69 magazine I would like to sell. If you are interested, I would like $40.00 shipped. It is in very good shape. Thanks Ken

01-19-2012, 10:43 AM	#4
TheRomanhistorian User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 301 Thanks: 170 Thanked 88 Times in 64 Posts	Thanks Ken and Tom for the offers, I'll take the pistol to the range and see if I like it (and if it works) before I get another magazine. I'm quite curious to see how well it works (if it works at all). I'll give the standard velocity ammunition a try then, Tom. I had just heard sometimes hotter ammo would make the Ermas more reliable but I'd hate to lead to even more wear and tear on these things. Thanks for the suggestion!

01-19-2012, 01:30 PM	#5
ithacaartist Twice a Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Atop the highest hill in Schuyler County NY Posts: 3,370 Thanks: 7,436 Thanked 2,611 Times in 1,378 Posts	Hi Michael, I generally agree with the idea of avoiding hv .22lr ammo because it was not around when these pistols were designed. However, as discussed on another post, CCI Mini-Mags--which are copper plated 40 gr. round-nose solids--definitely perform the best so far in my La .22's. I arrived at this by trying standard velocity stuff first, and found their energy insufficient to cycle the action fully. I went beyond Mini-mags in muzzle velocity rating, with Velocitor, and finally Stinger, which have 32 gr. bullets and 1600-something fps, and wound up with a front toggle link in 3 pieces. Replaced broken part and have stayed away from loads any more energetic than the mini-mags, no problems further. Feed issues are another realm, but it would appear you've been reading the forum about Ermas already, so I'll quit for now. David Parker

01-23-2012, 03:28 PM	#7
TheRomanhistorian User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 301 Thanks: 170 Thanked 88 Times in 64 Posts	Ok, an update: I'll try and get a photo up at some point (trying to find my 'good' camera) but I took my KGP-69 to the range on Saturday. I had picked it up on Friday from my local shop, cleaned it, and oiled it. I picked up some CCI Tactical ammunition (.22LR at 1200 fps, $26 for 375 rounds). I have not tried standard velocity but had heard from others that they would not work the action very well so I wanted to try something that was marginally less high velocity than Mini Mags (at 1235 fps). The Tacticals are copper plated round nose 40 grain and I had no problems with stovepipes or failures to fire, eject, or anything else. Worked like a charm. I went down to my local range on Saturday and put 120 rounds through my Erma KGP-69 (it is smaller than an actual Luger and smaller than the LA22 or EP22 or earlier Erma models). This thing is bloody heavy for its size, whilst the grip and part of the frame are alloy I found the barrel, receiver, toggle assembly, and the rest were steel (there was a magnetic attraction). It's quite heavy considering how tiny it looked when I first picked it up. I put 120 rounds through the pistol in an hour and had fairly good groupings and there was hardly any recoil, as to be expected. It's a fun little plinker and I wish there was something in between standard velocity and this 1200 fps stuff, though. I'll try some standard velocity next time if I can find a small box in case it doesn't work well. I either got lucky or maybe the KGP-69 .22 LR is far more reliable than the full size .22 variants. My serial number incidentally is 311644 and I paid $299.99 for it. Michael

01-23-2012, 04:00 PM	#8
rhuff Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Az. Posts: 2,305 Thanks: 2,736 Thanked 991 Times in 727 Posts	Michael, Congrats on finding a .22 cal cartridge that will function in your Erma. That is a real win in my books. Now, you can experiment with other .22 ammo to see if there is a lower velocity ammo that will function also.....knowing that you have one that will work in case the others don't work.

01-24-2012, 01:31 PM	#9
ithacaartist Twice a Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Atop the highest hill in Schuyler County NY Posts: 3,370 Thanks: 7,436 Thanked 2,611 Times in 1,378 Posts	Michael, I think this was an OK price. I've seen plenty listed for more, like $4-600, and they are not all necessarily minty. I have a limit of around $225-250 for any other La .22's I might find, seeking this because they are such a crapshoot concerning function. The diecast parts definitely detract from one's confidence in the things (Don't forget, I already broke one of the wimpy front toggles--right where there is an obvious lack of structure/beefiness.) and I would also shell out more for the Ermas with more steel in them. I believe the Ep's share this aspect with the KGP, so I'm anticipating trying them both, eventually. Let us know your results with the standard velocity! David Parker

02-10-2012, 09:08 PM	#11
minigun User Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 424 Thanks: 16 Thanked 20 Times in 15 Posts	My Dad had one of these when I was real young. The story of it is not a good one. My Dad loved to shoot it, but then one day as I remember, the gun fired full auto. Something had happened inside, but I don't know what. My Dad had every intention of getting it fixed, but then a burglar struck and we never saw the gun again. So, who knows what ever happened to it. My Dad used to laugh and say that he hoped whoever got it that it would blow up in their face. Just a little story on another one of these guns.