Good reload for a 4" P08

[DavidJayUden]

Over the years I have had consistantly bad luck loading cast bullets into the 9mm cases, in that they failed to feed all too regularly into the 4" barrel Lugers. Results were considerably better with the 6" Navy, and much better with the 8" Artillery barrel guns. I tried different velocities and seating lengths, but no real improvements. Part if the problem may have been in the velocities but I suspect that part of it was in the blunt round nose of the cast bullet vs. the tapered shape of the FMJ.
I would get good function results using Sellier and Belloit 115 FMJ ammo in the problematic 4 inch models.
So finally I bailed on the cast bullets and went with bulk Remington 115 gr. FMJ, and am getting exc. results with 5.4 grains of Unique at 1.170" OAL, Rem. or Win. primers. Outstanding results for both function and accuracy (although not tested from a bench at longer ranges).
Sort of nice to once again regard the Luger not only as gunmaker's art but as a functional, accurate and reliable handgun too.
dju

[mrerick]

David,

I've been using 4.2 grains of TiteGroup behind a 115gn FMJ Remington. Good reliable results on a byf 41 mixmaster shooter. Consistent feed and accuracy.

I also experienced some stovepipe failures to feed using cast 130gn RN made from pure tire weight lead. I'm still experimenting.

Marc

[Freischütz]

I had feeding problems with the NEI 122 gr truncated cast bullet. Then I read Sieger's advice on overall length. I increased the cartridge length and found 28.5 to 29.0 mm solved my problems. This length does leave the lube groove exposed. And it is too long for some current production magazines.

I also found that limp wristing guaranteed feeding trouble.

[Sieger]

Hi:

Please see my detailed comments in the topic "SAAMI Pressure for the 9MM" just a few topics below this one.

In it, read how to make both cast and fmj handloads for the 4 inch 9mm Luger one holers.

Sieger

[Freischütz]

See Sieger's 3/14/2004 post for more data on cartridge lengths.

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by Freischütz

I also found that limp wristing guaranteed feeding trouble.

Hi:

You know, I've never experienced this with a Luger. The Luger has the most natural "hold" of any pistol I've ever fired.

A good friend of mine did, however, experience it with a new Walther PPKs.

My Luger accuracy groups are shot with a two hand hold over a sand bag for consistency.

The "tricks" to making the Luger operate reliably are: springs (both recoil and magazine) in proper spec., proper OAL of the cartridges and handloads loaded with medium slow powders.

When I say reliably, I mean no jams in, now approaching, almost three thousand rounds fired. That's good!

Sieger

[Bongos]

Eureka! found my pet load for my 1916 DWM 4", 4.3gr of Win 231, federal primers and 115gr Hornady, at 10 yards 5 rounds touching, 4.0-4.1gr not enough to function reliably, 4.7-4.8gr Nice Bark and more recoil.. compariable to Federal Factory. Since my powder thrower cannot be consistent with this powder, if you range form 4.3-4.5 it very reliable with no issue, recoil is mild and book estimate to be around 1000 fps. Note: did not have issues at 4.2gr but since my measure is not consistent, I did not want to go any lower than 4.3... in chance it going into the 4.1 range

I loaded this on a Forster Co-ax single, yea it took an hour for 50 rounds but to know a mild load and not beating up a 95 yr old gun.. Priceless!

Good luck

[rhuff]

I have been having good success with:

(1) Remington 115gr FMJ

(2) Power Pistol at 6.0gr.

(3) Winchester SPP

(4) OAL of 1.145 in.

This ammo is being shot in my 1921 DWM alphabet Comm. Luger with a 6 in. bbl.

[rhuff]

Originally Posted by DavidJayUden

So finally I bailed on the cast bullets and went with bulk Remington 115 gr. FMJ, and am getting exc. results with 5.4 grains of Unique at 1.170" OAL, Rem. or Win. primers. Outstanding results for both function and accuracy (although not tested from a bench at longer ranges).
Sort of nice to once again regard the Luger not only as gunmaker's art but as a functional, accurate and reliable handgun too.
dju

Since I am always looking for the "perfect" load for my '21 DWM, I tried your recipe using Unique this morning. I had some Remington 115gr FMJ, and Winchester primers. I hope to make it to the range on Thursday, and give them a try....Thanks

[DavidJayUden]

I will await your results.
dju

[rhuff]

I have to say that I like the Unique loading.....unfortunately, my DWM does not!! In all fairness, my Luger does not like (100%) any load whether factory or handloads. I keep changing recoil springs, mag springs, OAL, powder charges etc, and maybe someday I will hit a 100% reliable Luger. I own 3 different brands of mags, and none are totally reliable either.

Anyway, thank you for the recipe using Unique and 115gr FMJ. I have entered it in my log book as a good load. Recoil wise, it appears very simular to WWB and PMC factory ammo. I did not chrono the rounds, so I can't say for sure.

I refuse to give up on my Luger, so onward and upward.


Doc

[hammered54]

not to hijack , but I would like to also reload some ammo for a WW1 era gun.
would like it to be what might have been used in that time.
I have bullseye, HS6, and blue dot. (I like the blue dot in my other 9mm S&W...nice snappy report) what bullet was used, 115,124,147??
thank's Matt.

[Sieger]

Hi All:

Here is an outstanding lead bullet load for you.

First, remember that "they" say that a 9mm will not shoot lead accurately!!!!

I'd just about given up hope of finding a good combination with my FMJ bullets and Accurate #5 powder.

I'd just about given up hope of finding a good combination with my RCBS #9mm-124-CN (truncated cone design) lead bullets and my usual favorite powders for the 9mm.

Well, sometimes 0+0 does equal 100!

Here is the load:

WCC Military Cases (Western Cartridge Company, a Winchester Company)
Tula Small Pistol Primers
RCBS 124 gr. Lead, Truncated Cone Bullets
Cartridge Over All Length: 29mm (1.14 inches)
Charge: 5.4 grs. of Accurate #5

The results were six touching (out of six) at 25 yards.

Used military cases are "cheap" and softer than commercial cases, thus, they expand to the chamber wall fully and at less pressure. Mine were, headstamped: NATO Cross in Circle, Last Two Numbers of Year Produced and WCC.

The Tula (Wolf) primers were also "cheap", but gave only about 98% reliability (two duds out of 100 fired). The Russians need to take another look at the design of their new boxer primers, as something is a miss, though I might add that the ones that did fire were very consistant.

Sieger

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by hammered54

not to hijack , but I would like to also reload some ammo for a WW1 era gun.
would like it to be what might have been used in that time.
I have bullseye, HS6, and blue dot. (I like the blue dot in my other 9mm S&W...nice snappy report) what bullet was used, 115,124,147??
thank's Matt.

Hi:

If you want to shoot tight groups with your pistol and not beat the heck out of it in the process, then you might try this target load:

124 grain Hornady FMJFP

WW Commercial Cases

Remington 1 1/2 Primers

Bullseye at 3.6 to 3.8 grs. (you find your best load)

C.O.A.L. at 28.7mm

This has been an excellent target load in my Lugers (seven touching at 25 yards) and will be easy on your pistol.


To recreate the WWI military load, which was a 123 grain bullet at 1,076 fps, please substitute one of the following for the Bullseye charge given above:

Power Pistol 5.4 grains (three shot clover leafs all day long).

SR 4756 5.5 grains (three shot clover leafs all day long).


Sieger

[ithacaartist]

A question about modifying a magazine:
One factor in function is friction between the front of the magazine and the noses of the cartridges, right? Has an industrious reloader ever tried lining this inner surface with a Delrin strip? One would seat the bullet into the case a little farther to compensate for the new overall dimension, but this might cover the lube groove--left hangin' out in some combinations to achieve the required overall cartridge length.

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by ithacaartist

A question about modifying a magazine:
One factor in function is friction between the front of the magazine and the noses of the cartridges, right? Has an industrious reloader ever tried lining this inner surface with a Delrin strip? One would seat the bullet into the case a little farther to compensate for the new overall dimension, but this might cover the lube groove--left hangin' out in some combinations to achieve the required overall cartridge length.

Hi:

Let's see if I can help here.

To answer your specific question, you might try a shim on the rear of the inside of the magazine, as the cartridges ride up on both the front and rear of it. Cutting a long, square shim, just the right thickness, and fixing it to the rear of the inside of the magazine, would, definately change the OAL requirements for proper function.

But, here is how I have personally addressed the lube groove "problem".

All of my Luger shooting is done with my handloads. These are carefully assembled and stored in plastic pistol cartridge boxes until I make it out to the range. No dust or grit is allowed in the boxes!!!

You are right in stating that most of the lead bullets we either buy off the shelf or mold ourselves have their lube grooves exposed when the proper, longer, original OALs are used to make our Lugers function properly.

Unless the positioning of the lube groove impacts the "straightness" of my final assembled cartridges, I simply ignore this little imperfection. In the RCBS 9mm-124-CN load I gave above, the upper edge of the lube groove is, indeed, showing.

To mitigate the problem, typically, I'll lube my bullets with the old NRA formula of 50% Alox and 50% Beeswax. This formula is not "sticky", nor will it "run" in the 100 degree weather we often have here in South West Florida.


Sieger

[ithacaartist]

Thanks, Sieger,
I just brushed up by checking with a G. Hemrotin e-book; yes, I'd forgotten that, of course, the upper edge of the cartridge's rim is the contact point under pressure. My thought was mainly to reduce the friction within the mag. I'm not a reloader yet, but had heard about the lube groove's exposure as a concern other reloaders had. I figured that the slippery strip/shim's dimension must be accounted for to maintain the cartridges' angle within the mag--gotta be as parallel to the upper side of the follower as possible. I reason that the optimal precise cartridge length would be changed by the new internal geometry, and hypothesize that shortening cartridges by seating the bullets further in would be a way to compensate for this decrease in width of the mag. It occurred to me that doing this might also address the lube groove "problem" I'd heard about, probably right here on this forum.
David Parker