Shattuck Lugers?

[ithacaartist]

Re the "Persian Artillery Luger" post, it was mentioned that RIA owns the Shattuck Lugers, selling some at May auction...
OK, I've found that the late Mr. Shattuck was a collector/author of Lugers, but didn't find a thread addressing sketchiness or fakery concerning Shattuck Lugers, and since I may be bidding on some lots in this auction, figured I'd better learn something about the implications of this situation.
I've noticed that some of what is offered is described as non-matching--some are Heinz guns--with 57 different serial numbers. But I perceived this as an opportunity to score my first shooter or minor collectible Luger at a reasonable price. Not?
A brief synopsis of the Shattuck Lugers reference by megsdad (Steve) would help me, I think.

Steve, we share a 7/6/* birthday!

Thanks,
David Parker

[lugerholsterrepair]

David, If you are looking to score your first shooter or minor collectible Luger at a reasonable price I would not be concerned with addressing the sketchiness or fakery concerning Shattuck Lugers. Low end guns generally are not candidates for sketchiness or fakery . It's when you get into the top end collectables and HIGH dollar pistols..then you must be on guard.

I would guess most serious collectors would hesitate to put in print much about Ralph Shattuck, at least in the negative sense.

[MikeP]

I bought 5 Lugers from him, early 2000s.

I returned 2.

I kept a 1918 that later I found has renumbered sideplate-old commercial style # still on bottom.
Somebody had dropped it and knocked a chunk out of the rear sight.
Nice holster, but two orig mags with repro bottoms. Sold as "wood bottom mags."

I kept a real nice 1937 rig that I am sure has been reblued. My mistake.

He was quick with the "oops" if you called him, but he banked on guys ignoring "minor" flaws.
High dollar shipping contributed to that.

I saw him at a gunshow and wanted to jerk him up by the throat and shake him.
I just walked on.

Pathetic old man with a lifetime blowing smoke up honest people's 4th point of contact.
A shame as he had so much knowledge and experience.
Overall a bad experience.

I think on the original Luger forum somebody stated "Never completely trust somebody who sells Lugers for a living."

My experience, anyways.

[lugerholsterrepair]

I would guess most serious collectors would hesitate to put in print much about Ralph Shattuck, at least in the negative sense.

I stand corrected.

[hgreer2]

Originally Posted by MikeP

I bought 5 Lugers from him, early 2000s.

I returned 2.

I kept a 1918 that later I found has renumbered sideplate-old commercial style # still on bottom.
Somebody had dropped it and knocked a chunk out of the rear sight.
Nice holster, but two orig mags with repro bottoms. Sold as "wood bottom mags."

I kept a real nice 1937 rig that I am sure has been reblued. My mistake.

He was quick with the "oops" if you called him, but he banked on guys ignoring "minor" flaws.
High dollar shipping contributed to that.

I saw him at a gunshow and wanted to jerk him up by the throat and shake him.
I just walked on.

Pathetic old man with a lifetime blowing smoke up honest people's 4th point of contact.
A shame as he had so much knowledge and experience.
Overall a bad experience.

I think on the original Luger forum somebody stated "Never completely trust somebody who sells Lugers for a living."

My experience, anyways.

I admire a man with the courage to speak the truth,I wish more did.

Harry

[the gunman]

" AMEN" to that can't say I had great dealings with the man.

[Vlim]

The problem is, most of the collecting community buys and sells guns trying to make a bit of a profit in order to add pieces to the collection. The line between 'hobby dealing' and 'profit boosting' is a thin one, and it takes a decent character to stick to the first and not go with the other.

So always be weary of people who are dealers first, and collectors second.
A long time friend of mr. Shattuck wrote this on his online guest book, which was opened after his passing:

August 10, 2010
Waffen-Fabrik USA will not be the same with the passing of this old timer.
Luger collectors will talk about Ralph and his impact on Luger collecting for years and years to come.

[Edward Tinker]

Vlim, I saw who wrote that and I do not know if I would call him a long-time friend of Ralph's.


David Parker, to tell you the truth, I do not know what your asking about lugers and then comparing Ralphs inventory has anything to do with each other?


Harry, there is a difference in telling a true story you encountered and is the truth and then there are 2nd hand stories, which is usually the case.

I bought two lugers from Ralph, they were lower end and as described and what I expected. he still owes me $25 for shipping, since I picked up one luger on the way back from my wife's fathers funeral. He was gracious, polite and made my wife forget her unhappiness for several hours. He always treated me with respect, shared information for our simson book and pictures. He has many detractors and admirers.

Ed

[George Anderson]

Ralph Shattuck was the greatest teacher I ever had. I bought from him regularly years ago and then made a 10K purchase...after that I spent money on books and time on personaL associations with people like Doug Smith. It was then that I began to really learn and understand what I should be looking for. Albeit expensive, I owe it all to Ralph.

[lew1]

Ralph was always He was gracious, polite and and friendly with me.

But I made a few purchases (Lugers and accessories) from him which, with one exception, turned out to have problems. The one exception was a Hi Power - I was at the Nashville show of the Tennessee Gun Collectors in the middle 70s, was talking to Ralph when a gentleman came up to Ralph, handed Ralph a Hi Power and said that this was the one he had mentioned to Ralph. Ralph paid him for it. I asked if I could see it and asked Ralph what he wanted for it. I went home with it.

Ralph had it - at most - 5 minutes in his possession. It took me 30 years to find out what it was. And that occurred only because I saw the markings in a book on German bayonets. It has an Eagle over LS. Could have been Luftshutz, etc. Turned out it is was used by the members of the Luftwaffe Schule. I know this one is legit.

[John D.]

I usually don't post about Ralph, but I will in this case. Just once.

About 30 years ago, I abondoned my random collection of lugers to focus on HKs. I called Ralph. You see I wanted to learn, do research, write something to follow up Mr. Gibson's excellent work. And Ralph introduced me it Mr. Gibson, and Ralph opened his records, and Mr. Gibson assisted me with introductions to many who kept records.

Since then, I assisted Tom A. on his journey with Krieghoffs, and many others. It is what collecting is, or what, should be about.

Ralph had some faults, as we all do.

But Ralph Shattuck was many a mentor to some of us still.

I won't take that away from him.

Some folks didn't like him or trust him. And that's OK. But in my book, - he tried to steer so many in the right direction to collect, research and do the work as he did - I can't and will never fault him.

In today's world, in my view, we - we who are reading this are "lazy collectors". We sit on the internet and let Google do our research, or let a "forum" provide us with an answer?

You have to remember, that wasn't the case when Ralph started collecting (and yes, he began as a collector first not a dealer first, some folks are misinformed). Ralph did the best he could with what he thought he knew.

And if folks did the research, and actually tried to learn, Ralph would be more than generous with his time and knowledge.

Just from my end of the telescope.

John D.

[Norme]

Hi David, As you may have gathered, the late Mr Shattuck was a somewhat controversial figure. However, that need not concern you. I understand that you are looking for a "shooter" Luger, and since they, by definition are refinished, mismatched, or both, the idea that one could be faked is absurd. I believe Jerry Burney made the same point earlier in this thread. If I were looking for such a gun I would try to find a Vopo Luger. They were assembled from parts, re-barreled and refinished, and are usually superb shooters. They were intended for the East German police and many collectors, myself included, consider them a legitimate variation. They can only go up in value. Regards, Norm

[John Sabato]

Thanks to John D. for being so eloquent about Ralph Shattuck. I think what you said was the most honest and sincere and truthful statement I have ever heard about associating with Ralph.

I never personally purchased anything from Ralph, but met him on several occasions at gun shows. (I Just never had any money to buy anything because of family related expenses, but that's another story...).

On every occasion that I met him, as described by others, he was gracious, gentlemanly, and courteous to a fault. Whatever else he may have been to other people, he was a friend and I shall remember him fondly... Rest in peace Ralph.

[ithacaartist]

Thanks, all, for filling me in. Well taken is the point that no one would fake a shooter or minor collectible grade, so no need for me to worry if that's what I acquire. And it certainly makes sense that the higher end collectibles would be the more likely arena for fakes.
There is plenty of obfuscation in the ads and auctions even at the lower levels, with "as far as I can see", etc. loopholes in the descriptions, BAD photography, and high reserves and starting prices. You can tell the dealers from the collectors--the latter tend to have better photos and fuller descriptions when listing Lugers.
I hadn't encountered anything about Ralph Shattuck, that I recall, until I read that other post. The comment there was somewhat alarming, so I wanted to know whether or not it would affect my little world somehow. With perspective gained from the above replies, I can see why Ed would ask just what in the heck I was asking. Sorry if I ripped a band-aid off someone's experience, but then again I gave others an opportunity for expressing kindness and respect-- Thank you all for honest responses.

[lew1]

Originally Posted by ithacaartist

Thanks, all, for filling me in. Well taken is the point that no one would fake a shooter or minor collectible grade, so no need for me to worry if that's what I acquire. And it certainly makes sense that the higher end collectibles would be the more likely arena for fakes.
There is plenty of obfuscation in the ads and auctions even at the lower levels, with "as far as I can see", etc. loopholes in the descriptions, BAD photography, and high reserves and starting prices. You can tell the dealers from the collectors--the latter tend to have better photos and fuller descriptions when listing Lugers.
I hadn't encountered anything about Ralph Shattuck, that I recall, until I read that other post. The comment there was somewhat alarming, so I wanted to know whether or not it would affect my little world somehow. With perspective gained from the above replies, I can see why Ed would ask just what in the heck I was asking. Sorry if I ripped a band-aid off someone's experience, but then again I gave others an opportunity for expressing kindness and respect-- Thank you all for honest responses.

Remember, the auction house only guarantees the Heading (in bold). Anything else is not guaranteed. All the small print is sales talk which does not bind them. So basically all the auction house may be guaranteeing is that fact that it is a luger.

[alanint]

David,
If all you are looking for is a nice shooter, you are better off buying one from a forum member and avoid all the auction house fees.

Be very well assured you will be getting the best bang for your buck.

[DavidJayUden]

Sort of an interesting case study here with all of the different perspectives of the same man. (Whom I must be the only one on Earth to have never met...)
dju

[Michael Zeleny]

Originally Posted by lew1

Remember, the auction house only guarantees the Heading (in bold). Anything else is not guaranteed. All the small print is sales talk which does not bind them. So basically all the auction house may be guaranteeing is that fact that it is a luger.

As witness this event, Hermann Historica guarantees its entire listing, to the point of refunding the money paid for a fake gun.

[cirelaw]

luger questions,Also the fact that all of my lugers except two I purchases from him over time. I met Him and Nancy for the first and last time in Orlando with His family. Very cordial, Eric