A Pair of American Eagles

SomeGuy · 04-04-2011, 04:53 PM

I am looking for information about a pair of my father's Lugers.

The first has very few markings other than the DWM on the toggle, the American Eagle on the chamber and the serial number on the barrel and frame.

The second has the DWM and American Eagle along with a crown over N proofs on the receiver, side of the toggle, and barrel. It has Germany on the frame along with the serial number.

Any information and approximate values would be appreciated. Thanks.

Hugo Borchardt · 04-04-2011, 05:51 PM

Eric:

Welcome! A first name and general location (ie Nebraska) in your message are greatly appreciated! I found your first name in your profile.

Nice photos! I would like to see photos of the left side of both guns with the safety in the upper position to better evaluate their finish. I personally cannot tell from the photos if their finishes are original, which has a major impact on their value.

The first one (Serial #7115 I think) is a model 1900 American Eagle. It is in the serial # range of those tested by the US Army in 1901-1907. The serial # is not a "Bannerman" number - one of the serial #s known to be purchased by surplus dealer Francis Bannerman which would validate it as a US test gun. The gun does not carry a "Germany" export stamp, which is typical of guns in that serial # range.

We would be interested to know if this gun is all matching. The #15 should appear on all parts including the rear of toggle, takedown lever and sideplate.

The second one appears to be a 1906 Commercial luger. #54772? Dwight Gruber's commercial luger database lists #54772 as a commercial w/o an Eagle. If it has an American Eagle on it and I have the serial # right, please post a photo so he can update his database. The "Germany" is a requisite export stamp designating that the gun was intended to be sold outside of Germany.

Both guns are 7.65 (.30) calibre...

Do either of these guns have holsters?

I would trust resident experts Ron Wood, Dwight Gruber, Ed Tinker, and others to tell you more including value range...

Clark in Nashville

SomeGuy · 04-04-2011, 06:59 PM

Thanks Clark.

7115 doesn't have a serial number (15) on the takedown lever that I can tell, but it does have it on the bottom of the side plate and the rear of the toggle.

Here's a pic of the top of the 54772. It's a little overexposed as I was trying different things. I don't know how I forgot to get shot of the top this time around.

I'll get some shots with the safety in the upper position later.

alanint · 04-04-2011, 08:03 PM

Welcome to the forum!
Please, please remove that sticker from your pristine pistol! The paper in the label and the gum holding it on will attract moisture and possibly ruin your gun's finish beneath the sticker.

nukem556 · 04-04-2011, 08:59 PM

Good lord, my bloods' running greener than Spocks with envy! beautiful.....the blue looks legit, the machining marks and edges are razor-sharp, straw is awfully pristine tho.....sure eager to see what Meister R. Wood and the other guys say!

DavidJayUden · 04-04-2011, 11:00 PM

I agree. That straw coloring just looks too good to be true. But very nice early Lugers.
dju
Omaha

Edward Tinker · 04-05-2011, 01:08 AM

Very nice, I collect American Eagle, although no expert by any means.

I think 7115 has been restored, its color looks off to me, but from pictures it is always very hard to tell!

The other looks good, although the crown N seems light; but same caveat as above, as they both seem like old restores to me.

I would say, for a restored in range, but not bannerman 1900, $2500, if original (obviously the strawing is most likely not) then almost double that, around $4000-$4500

The 1906 is worth around $1500-$1800, more if original?

Pictures can show a lot, but in person is the best way, especially for an old restore done 20, 30 or 60 years ago...

Ed

nukem556 · 04-05-2011, 08:57 AM

if they are restored, it sure wasn't by any kitchen table amatuer!

alanint · 04-05-2011, 09:04 AM

I say that the condition of the grips points to very well kept guns with no restoration involved.

DavidJayUden · 04-05-2011, 10:41 AM

It may help to see left side shots with the safety lever up, and also downward shots into the top of the mag. well with the toggle back.
dju

Ron Wood · 04-05-2011, 02:05 PM

Eric,
Beautiful guns, and the 1900 is particularly exciting for me. Although not a part of the Bannerman purchase it falls between known serial numbers 7108 and 7147 that were part of the purchase. In my estimation, I would be comfortable in saying that there is at least a 90% or better likelihood that it is a piece that was actually used in the US Test Trials. That is the good news…the less encouraging is that it is a professional restoration with a replaced takedown lever. That detracts somewhat from the monetary value, but as a collector piece it has, again in my opinion, a legitimate place in history.

The 1906 appears to be largely in original condition but may have had the straw restored.

SomeGuy · 04-05-2011, 04:28 PM

Thanks again everybody.

Good news (I hope). 7115 does have a serial number on the takedown lever. It was on the right side, not the bottom like the other.

Here are a bunch more pictures.

SomeGuy · 04-05-2011, 04:32 PM

Here's a few of them together.

Norme · 04-05-2011, 04:43 PM

Hi Eric, I don't know much about American Eagles, but I do know great photos when I see them. Thanks for showing. Regards, Norm

cirelaw · 04-05-2011, 06:22 PM

From an Eric to an Eric, I was wondering what kind of camera did you use to take such proffessional photographs?

Ron Wood · 04-05-2011, 07:23 PM

Eric,
Whoever restored your 1900 Luger did a great job and carefully marked replaced part(s?), However, he did not know that the surviving examples above 7100 have the serial nuimber placed on the left flat of the takedown lever, and not on the right round end. The devil is in the details.

SomeGuy · 04-05-2011, 07:41 PM

Ron, thank you for all the information.

Eric, the camera is just a 7.1MP Canon SD550. I also used one of the simple, "Tabletop Photo Studio" things with a couple of lights and diffusing panels. I used a tripod and set the camera to manual. I used 50 ISO, custom white balance, and a 2 second timer. I had to play around with the auto focus settings to get to focus on the spot I wanted.

cirelaw · 04-05-2011, 07:49 PM

You are the Ansel Adams of our forum!

steven c · 04-05-2011, 08:47 PM

Norme and Cirelaw,

I thought the same thing at the start of the thread. If that is what strawed parts looked like in there day, I see why some of you guys like the older Lugers.

And thanks for posting some killer pic's

Steven

silverknife · 04-05-2011, 10:44 PM

2 Questions:

1. Why is there no bluing under the safety lever with the lever in the down position?

2. Is it not possible that the person stamping the takedown lever was distracted and just FUBARED that part? If that had happened would the factory necessarily have either discarded the part of ground off the misplaced stamp and then stamped the part correctly?

I'm betting that I am not the only one who has seen unrestored wartime firearms with inspection stamps in the wrong places, especially during periods following changes in procedure.

Regards,
Doug

04-04-2011, 05:51 PM	#2
Hugo Borchardt User Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Tennessee Posts: 372 Thanks: 340 Thanked 143 Times in 48 Posts	Eric: Welcome! A first name and general location (ie Nebraska) in your message are greatly appreciated! I found your first name in your profile. Nice photos! I would like to see photos of the left side of both guns with the safety in the upper position to better evaluate their finish. I personally cannot tell from the photos if their finishes are original, which has a major impact on their value. The first one (Serial #7115 I think) is a model 1900 American Eagle. It is in the serial # range of those tested by the US Army in 1901-1907. The serial # is not a "Bannerman" number - one of the serial #s known to be purchased by surplus dealer Francis Bannerman which would validate it as a US test gun. The gun does not carry a "Germany" export stamp, which is typical of guns in that serial # range. We would be interested to know if this gun is all matching. The #15 should appear on all parts including the rear of toggle, takedown lever and sideplate. The second one appears to be a 1906 Commercial luger. #54772? Dwight Gruber's commercial luger database lists #54772 as a commercial w/o an Eagle. If it has an American Eagle on it and I have the serial # right, please post a photo so he can update his database. The "Germany" is a requisite export stamp designating that the gun was intended to be sold outside of Germany. Both guns are 7.65 (.30) calibre... Do either of these guns have holsters? I would trust resident experts Ron Wood, Dwight Gruber, Ed Tinker, and others to tell you more including value range... Clark in Nashville __________________ My militaria collection is dedicated to the memory of my Grandfather, Marine Gunnery Sergeant Dave Hill, Jr., wounded in action at The Assault of the Second Marine Division on Betio Island, Tarawa Atoll, 20-23 November, 1943. http://www.tarawa1943.com/pages/casualties%20tarawa.htm Last edited by Hugo Borchardt; 04-04-2011 at 07:12 PM. Reason: corrected typos

04-04-2011, 06:59 PM	#3
SomeGuy User Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 10 Thanks: 6 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Thanks Clark. 7115 doesn't have a serial number (15) on the takedown lever that I can tell, but it does have it on the bottom of the side plate and the rear of the toggle. Here's a pic of the top of the 54772. It's a little overexposed as I was trying different things. I don't know how I forgot to get shot of the top this time around. I'll get some shots with the safety in the upper position later. Attached Thumbnails

04-05-2011, 02:05 PM	#11
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,035 Thanks: 1,106 Thanked 5,242 Times in 1,719 Posts	Eric, Beautiful guns, and the 1900 is particularly exciting for me. Although not a part of the Bannerman purchase it falls between known serial numbers 7108 and 7147 that were part of the purchase. In my estimation, I would be comfortable in saying that there is at least a 90% or better likelihood that it is a piece that was actually used in the US Test Trials. That is the good news…the less encouraging is that it is a professional restoration with a replaced takedown lever. That detracts somewhat from the monetary value, but as a collector piece it has, again in my opinion, a legitimate place in history. The 1906 appears to be largely in original condition but may have had the straw restored. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

04-05-2011, 04:28 PM	#12
SomeGuy User Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 10 Thanks: 6 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Thanks again everybody. Good news (I hope). 7115 does have a serial number on the takedown lever. It was on the right side, not the bottom like the other. Here are a bunch more pictures. Attached Thumbnails

04-05-2011, 04:32 PM	#13
SomeGuy User Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 10 Thanks: 6 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Here's a few of them together. Attached Thumbnails

04-04-2011, 04:53 PM	#1
SomeGuy User Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 10 Thanks: 6 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	A Pair of American Eagles I am looking for information about a pair of my father's Lugers. The first has very few markings other than the DWM on the toggle, the American Eagle on the chamber and the serial number on the barrel and frame. The second has the DWM and American Eagle along with a crown over N proofs on the receiver, side of the toggle, and barrel. It has Germany on the frame along with the serial number. Any information and approximate values would be appreciated. Thanks. Attached Thumbnails

04-04-2011, 08:03 PM	#4
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,917 Times in 1,193 Posts	Welcome to the forum! Please, please remove that sticker from your pristine pistol! The paper in the label and the gum holding it on will attract moisture and possibly ruin your gun's finish beneath the sticker.

04-04-2011, 08:59 PM	#5
nukem556 User Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Irmo, SC Posts: 625 Thanks: 35 Thanked 168 Times in 107 Posts	Good lord, my bloods' running greener than Spocks with envy! beautiful.....the blue looks legit, the machining marks and edges are razor-sharp, straw is awfully pristine tho.....sure eager to see what Meister R. Wood and the other guys say!

04-04-2011, 11:00 PM	#6
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	I agree. That straw coloring just looks too good to be true. But very nice early Lugers. dju Omaha

04-05-2011, 01:08 AM	#7
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,960 Thanks: 2,062 Thanked 4,591 Times in 2,114 Posts	Very nice, I collect American Eagle, although no expert by any means. I think 7115 has been restored, its color looks off to me, but from pictures it is always very hard to tell! The other looks good, although the crown N seems light; but same caveat as above, as they both seem like old restores to me. I would say, for a restored in range, but not bannerman 1900, $2500, if original (obviously the strawing is most likely not) then almost double that, around $4000-$4500 The 1906 is worth around $1500-$1800, more if original? Pictures can show a lot, but in person is the best way, especially for an old restore done 20, 30 or 60 years ago... Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

04-05-2011, 08:57 AM	#8
nukem556 User Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Irmo, SC Posts: 625 Thanks: 35 Thanked 168 Times in 107 Posts	if they are restored, it sure wasn't by any kitchen table amatuer!

04-05-2011, 09:04 AM	#9
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,917 Times in 1,193 Posts	I say that the condition of the grips points to very well kept guns with no restoration involved.

04-05-2011, 10:41 AM	#10
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	It may help to see left side shots with the safety lever up, and also downward shots into the top of the mag. well with the toggle back. dju

04-05-2011, 04:43 PM	#14
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,417 Thanks: 226 Thanked 2,607 Times in 933 Posts	Hi Eric, I don't know much about American Eagles, but I do know great photos when I see them. Thanks for showing. Regards, Norm

04-05-2011, 06:22 PM	#15
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,138 Times in 2,176 Posts	From an Eric to an Eric, I was wondering what kind of camera did you use to take such proffessional photographs?

04-05-2011, 07:23 PM	#16
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,035 Thanks: 1,106 Thanked 5,242 Times in 1,719 Posts	Eric, Whoever restored your 1900 Luger did a great job and carefully marked replaced part(s?), However, he did not know that the surviving examples above 7100 have the serial nuimber placed on the left flat of the takedown lever, and not on the right round end. The devil is in the details. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

04-05-2011, 07:41 PM	#17
SomeGuy User Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 10 Thanks: 6 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Ron, thank you for all the information. Eric, the camera is just a 7.1MP Canon SD550. I also used one of the simple, "Tabletop Photo Studio" things with a couple of lights and diffusing panels. I used a tripod and set the camera to manual. I used 50 ISO, custom white balance, and a 2 second timer. I had to play around with the auto focus settings to get to focus on the spot I wanted.

04-05-2011, 07:49 PM	#18
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,138 Times in 2,176 Posts	You are the Ansel Adams of our forum!

04-05-2011, 08:47 PM	#19
steven c User Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: texas Posts: 60 Thanks: 15 Thanked 9 Times in 8 Posts	Norme and Cirelaw, I thought the same thing at the start of the thread. If that is what strawed parts looked like in there day, I see why some of you guys like the older Lugers. And thanks for posting some killer pic's Steven

04-05-2011, 10:44 PM	#20
silverknife User Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Western New York Posts: 78 Thanks: 11 Thanked 19 Times in 13 Posts	2 Questions: 1. Why is there no bluing under the safety lever with the lever in the down position? 2. Is it not possible that the person stamping the takedown lever was distracted and just FUBARED that part? If that had happened would the factory necessarily have either discarded the part of ground off the misplaced stamp and then stamped the part correctly? I'm betting that I am not the only one who has seen unrestored wartime firearms with inspection stamps in the wrong places, especially during periods following changes in procedure. Regards, Doug