New S/42 in the family tonight

rivieraranch · 11-20-2010, 08:16 PM

I have owned some Luger pistols in the past; the last one was about 20 years ago. I recently began looking for a Mauser Parabellum. Naturally a search like this leads to other things. Tonight I wandered in to a neighborhood gun shop a half an hour before closing. My wife and daughter were with me. I saw this Luger lying in the bottom of the cabinet with some other used stuff. I could see that it was mirror refinished and re-strawed. I asked to look at it. It looked nice enough and the price was very reasonable on it; much to my family's dismay I said, "I'll take it."

It is a 41 S/42 with a 4-digit serial number. I have not disassembled it but the numbers I have seen thus far match. Obviously the clip and grips are reproductions. I am buying it to shoot.

The restorer did an excellent job. The corners of the metal are not rounded. The Nazi proofs were completely removed from the right side of the receiver. That is fine with me. The restorer also chose to straw the trigger, take down lever, safety catch. magazine catch, ejector and also the extractor. It is not how a 41 S/42 would have looked originally, but I prefer straw for the small parts.

The only question I have is regarding the small proof mark below the take down lever. What is that?

Ron Smith · 11-20-2010, 08:34 PM

Jim,

The mark is a VoPo East German Police property mark. Possibly the reason that the Nazi proofs are gone. They were most likely peened out by the Russians or East Germans. The person who restored it probably just draw filed what was left of them off.

Ron

Norme · 11-20-2010, 08:37 PM

Hi Jim, The S/42 Mauser code was last used in early 1939. Your 41 S/42 is an anomaly, either out of sequence production, or, more likely, assembled post war from parts from different guns. Regards, Norm

DavidJayUden · 11-20-2010, 10:35 PM

A very pretty gun. We can hope that it shoots as good as it looks.
dju

mrerick · 11-21-2010, 09:09 AM

Hi Jim - Congratulations on your new Luger!

As Norm mentioned, your Luger is most likely assembled from parts of different periods.

By 1941 (actually during 1937) Mauser had added small extended "humps" to the top rear of the frame ears. Your gun doesn't appear to have these.

That means that the "41" dated receiver couldn't have left the factory with your frame.

The re-finisher took great pains to fire blue the parts that would have been that way before 1938. 1937 was a year of transition. The hump was added during that year, and the finish was shifted to complete salt bluing that year.

On military Lugers, there is generally a suffix letter below the serial number on the frame, on the front of the trigger area. You don't appear to have this suffix.

There were two periods during Mauser manufacture of Lugers when they had a block of guns without letter suffix. 1937 was one of those. My guess is that your Luger frame was from 1937.

The "S/42" on your toggle also corresponds to the typography that was used in 1937.

Your "41" dated receiver was probably the "donor" part during the rebuild. That partially accounts for removal of the firing proofs, and appearance of the serial number stamped into the left front of the receiver (which may be engraved rather than stamped).

I can't see the bottom of the barrel. Does this also have your serial number stamped in it? Does the witness mark lineup with the receiver?

Try taking your photographs without flash, in indirect even light. It will make it easier to evaluate things.

Someone went to great pains to make this appear to be a pristine all matching Luger. The presence of the toggle's axle retention pin (which appears to be still in the white) makes it possible that the train is in the original finish. It is rather well done work!

VoPo Lugers usually had obvious refinishing work. They also should have entered the USA with importer marks. If these are not present (sometimes they are under the grips - be very careful if you remove the grips; easy to break, particularly the left one at the safety lever) it's possible that they were removed when the gun was refinished to increase it's value. That, of course, would have been a federal "no-no"...

I would like to see a closeup of the serial number on the front of the frame. Is the second digit overstamped? I have a 1936 that has a serial number factory overstamped in that area. Would be interesting to see if that happened again.

Marc

newluger · 11-21-2010, 09:23 AM

Jim,

I like it.

Peter

sheepherder · 11-21-2010, 10:27 AM

I also like it. Someone took a lot of time to refinish it. It may not be period correct, but it reflects what I would call a "labor of love"...

The grips appear to be one of the better reproductions. Some of the poorer repros leave a gap in the top left grip, where the grip fits under the sideplate...Others have a much finer checkering line spacing which just doesn't look right...Yours looks just the way it should...

A refinished Luger like this, mismatched & refinished, would still sell (and quickly) for at least $800 at the local [WNY] gun show...and quite likely more...

The area of the country where I live sees very few Lugers/Broomhandles/Walthers; they bring collector prices regardless of condition or correctness...

Hugo Borchardt · 11-21-2010, 11:59 AM

Beautiful restoration! Should really turn some heads at the range. Congratulations!

rivieraranch · 11-21-2010, 07:38 PM

I went to the shooting range at Bass Outdoor World today and tried out the weapon. I bought a 100 rounds of Winchester white box 9mm ammo that most everybody here recommends. I ran 50 rounds through the weapon.

In use it malfunctioned several times, which I attribute largely to the 7 round reproduction magazine. On firing the very first round the magazine fell out. I had not rammed it fully "home." Later a spent casing stove piped with the rear going into the chamber. The range attendant had to help me clear this. Another stovepipe happened but I was able to clear it out easily. At one point into the session the firing pin failed to engage; I was there with a loaded chamber pulling the trigger and it did not fire. I unloaded the weapon and removed and reinstalled the side plate. After doing that this malfunction did not repeat. Although the hold open always worked after the final shot, it also held the toggle open 2 additional times before the magazine was empty.

What kind of magazine would obviate these malfunctions?

As far as performance, it shoots very tight. The trigger pull is decent. You can squeeze the trigger and touch it off without spoiling the aim. I had disassembled it, cleaned it and lightly oiled it prior to going to the range. The parts all fit together very tight and the piece is extremely solid. Despite the initial malfunctions it is still a sweet weapon and could be very accurate.

rivieraranch · 11-21-2010, 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrerick

Hi Jim - Congratulations on your new Luger!

I can't see the bottom of the barrel. Does this also have your serial number stamped in it? Does the witness mark lineup with the receiver?

The barrel does not have a serial number on it. You can see where 8.81 was polished down. The bore is nice and shiny. It is probably a replacement at some point.

Someone went to great pains to make this appear to be a pristine all matching Luger. The presence of the toggle's axle retention pin (which appears to be still in the white) makes it possible that the train is in the original finish. It is rather well done work!

The restorer STRAWED the axle pin!

VoPo Lugers usually had obvious refinishing work. They also should have entered the USA with importer marks. If these are not present (sometimes they are under the grips - be very careful if you remove the grips; easy to break, particularly the left one at the safety lever) it's possible that they were removed when the gun was refinished to increase it's value. That, of course, would have been a federal "no-no"...

I would like to see a closeup of the serial number on the front of the frame. Is the second digit overstamped? I have a 1936 that has a serial number factory overstamped in that area. Would be interesting to see if that happened again.

I will try and take some snapshots outside in natural light in the next couple of days so we can get to the bottom of all this.

[/FONT][/B]
Marc

[B][FONT="Courier New"]Thanks very much for your thoughtful expertise.

Ice · 11-22-2010, 04:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rivieraranch

What kind of magazine would obviate these malfunctions?

MecGar makes the best aftermarket magazines for shooting your fine looking Luger.

Charlie

rivieraranch · 11-22-2010, 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ice

MecGar makes the best aftermarket magazines for shooting your fine looking Luger.

Charlie

What is a reliable source?

rivieraranch · 11-22-2010, 09:30 PM

Your "41" dated receiver was probably the "donor" part during the rebuild. That partially accounts for removal of the firing proofs, and appearance of the serial number stamped into the left front of the receiver (which may be engraved rather than stamped).

On the underside of the receiver corresponding to the chamber area it is marked "9mm para" with an East German proof mark like the one under the takedown lever.

I can't see the bottom of the barrel. Does this also have your serial number stamped in it? Does the witness mark lineup with the receiver?

I don't know what a witness mark is. But there is a little notch on the barrel and receiver that line up.

Someone went to great pains to make this appear to be a pristine all matching Luger.

I noticed in taking it apart the the hold open is serial numbered 32, which is umatching.

I would like to see a closeup of the serial number on the front of the frame. Is the second digit overstamped? I have a 1936 that has a serial number factory overstamped in that area. Would be interesting to see if that happened again.

I will get those photos tomorrow if possible.

Marc[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the advice.

rivieraranch · 11-24-2010, 07:01 PM

Here are some snaps of the front of the frame.

mrerick · 11-24-2010, 08:19 PM

Jim,

Thanks for posting the CUs of the serial number.

It does look like this was overstamped, and it might be in a way similar to what my 1936 looks like.

In my case, they had stamped one of the digits in the wrong order, then corrected the error with an overstamp of the right digit.

Marc

Lugerdoc · 11-25-2010, 11:02 AM

Marc, Nice looking shooter. Judging by the alinement of digits on your frame serial, I would guess that it too has been renumbered. You might want to try a new Mecgar mag (instock @$35) and new HO spring @$25, to see if these solve your funstion problems. If not, I also repair lugers and find the one that are not matching factory original, usually have some problems. TH

mrerick · 11-25-2010, 02:34 PM

Hey Tom,

Jim has the new Luger, not me!

Here's a picture of the 1936 that I recently acquired. Consensus on the forum was that the overstamp took place at the factory at the time of manufacture.

Marc

rivieraranch · 12-02-2010, 10:23 PM

This is another '41 S/42' listed on Gunbroker.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=201962304

Auction # 201962304

Wonder if mine looked similar before the re-do.

Norme · 12-02-2010, 10:39 PM

Hi Jim, That Gunbroker item you posted is a very interesting gun. To call it mismatched is the under statement of the year! The frame is from a pre 1919 Erfurt, the toggle train from a 1939 or earlier Mauser, and the receiver from a 1941 Mauser. If that wasn't enough, the small parts all come from different guns. Regards, Norm

rivieraranch · 12-02-2010, 10:43 PM

I thought I saw some of those East German Police proofs on the Gunbroker item; that little bird that looks like a chicken.

11-20-2010, 08:16 PM	#1
rivieraranch User Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: South Florida Posts: 101 Thanks: 4 Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts	New S/42 in the family tonight I have owned some Luger pistols in the past; the last one was about 20 years ago. I recently began looking for a Mauser Parabellum. Naturally a search like this leads to other things. Tonight I wandered in to a neighborhood gun shop a half an hour before closing. My wife and daughter were with me. I saw this Luger lying in the bottom of the cabinet with some other used stuff. I could see that it was mirror refinished and re-strawed. I asked to look at it. It looked nice enough and the price was very reasonable on it; much to my family's dismay I said, "I'll take it." It is a 41 S/42 with a 4-digit serial number. I have not disassembled it but the numbers I have seen thus far match. Obviously the clip and grips are reproductions. I am buying it to shoot. The restorer did an excellent job. The corners of the metal are not rounded. The Nazi proofs were completely removed from the right side of the receiver. That is fine with me. The restorer also chose to straw the trigger, take down lever, safety catch. magazine catch, ejector and also the extractor. It is not how a 41 S/42 would have looked originally, but I prefer straw for the small parts. The only question I have is regarding the small proof mark below the take down lever. What is that? Attached Thumbnails Last edited by rivieraranch; 11-20-2010 at 08:21 PM. Reason: omssion

11-20-2010, 08:34 PM	#2
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Jim, The mark is a VoPo East German Police property mark. Possibly the reason that the Nazi proofs are gone. They were most likely peened out by the Russians or East Germans. The person who restored it probably just draw filed what was left of them off. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

11-21-2010, 09:09 AM	#5
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,920 Thanks: 1,377 Thanked 3,135 Times in 1,518 Posts	Hi Jim - Congratulations on your new Luger! As Norm mentioned, your Luger is most likely assembled from parts of different periods. By 1941 (actually during 1937) Mauser had added small extended "humps" to the top rear of the frame ears. Your gun doesn't appear to have these. That means that the "41" dated receiver couldn't have left the factory with your frame. The re-finisher took great pains to fire blue the parts that would have been that way before 1938. 1937 was a year of transition. The hump was added during that year, and the finish was shifted to complete salt bluing that year. On military Lugers, there is generally a suffix letter below the serial number on the frame, on the front of the trigger area. You don't appear to have this suffix. There were two periods during Mauser manufacture of Lugers when they had a block of guns without letter suffix. 1937 was one of those. My guess is that your Luger frame was from 1937. The "S/42" on your toggle also corresponds to the typography that was used in 1937. Your "41" dated receiver was probably the "donor" part during the rebuild. That partially accounts for removal of the firing proofs, and appearance of the serial number stamped into the left front of the receiver (which may be engraved rather than stamped). I can't see the bottom of the barrel. Does this also have your serial number stamped in it? Does the witness mark lineup with the receiver? Try taking your photographs without flash, in indirect even light. It will make it easier to evaluate things. Someone went to great pains to make this appear to be a pristine all matching Luger. The presence of the toggle's axle retention pin (which appears to be still in the white) makes it possible that the train is in the original finish. It is rather well done work! VoPo Lugers usually had obvious refinishing work. They also should have entered the USA with importer marks. If these are not present (sometimes they are under the grips - be very careful if you remove the grips; easy to break, particularly the left one at the safety lever) it's possible that they were removed when the gun was refinished to increase it's value. That, of course, would have been a federal "no-no"... I would like to see a closeup of the serial number on the front of the frame. Is the second digit overstamped? I have a 1936 that has a serial number factory overstamped in that area. Would be interesting to see if that happened again. Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

11-21-2010, 10:27 AM	#7
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,197 Thanks: 1,416 Thanked 4,462 Times in 2,336 Posts	I also like it. Someone took a lot of time to refinish it. It may not be period correct, but it reflects what I would call a "labor of love"... The grips appear to be one of the better reproductions. Some of the poorer repros leave a gap in the top left grip, where the grip fits under the sideplate...Others have a much finer checkering line spacing which just doesn't look right...Yours looks just the way it should... A refinished Luger like this, mismatched & refinished, would still sell (and quickly) for at least $800 at the local [WNY] gun show...and quite likely more... The area of the country where I live sees very few Lugers/Broomhandles/Walthers; they bring collector prices regardless of condition or correctness... __________________ I like my coffee the way I like my women... ...Cold and bitter...

11-21-2010, 11:59 AM	#8
Hugo Borchardt User Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Tennessee Posts: 372 Thanks: 340 Thanked 143 Times in 48 Posts	Beautiful restoration! Should really turn some heads at the range. Congratulations! __________________ My militaria collection is dedicated to the memory of my Grandfather, Marine Gunnery Sergeant Dave Hill, Jr., wounded in action at The Assault of the Second Marine Division on Betio Island, Tarawa Atoll, 20-23 November, 1943. http://www.tarawa1943.com/pages/casualties%20tarawa.htm

11-20-2010, 08:37 PM	#3
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,417 Thanks: 226 Thanked 2,607 Times in 933 Posts	Hi Jim, The S/42 Mauser code was last used in early 1939. Your 41 S/42 is an anomaly, either out of sequence production, or, more likely, assembled post war from parts from different guns. Regards, Norm

11-20-2010, 10:35 PM	#4
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	A very pretty gun. We can hope that it shoots as good as it looks. dju

11-21-2010, 09:23 AM	#6
newluger User Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Franklin Tennessee Posts: 119 Thanks: 22 Thanked 10 Times in 7 Posts	Jim, I like it. Peter

11-21-2010, 07:38 PM	#9
rivieraranch User Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: South Florida Posts: 101 Thanks: 4 Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts	I went to the shooting range at Bass Outdoor World today and tried out the weapon. I bought a 100 rounds of Winchester white box 9mm ammo that most everybody here recommends. I ran 50 rounds through the weapon. In use it malfunctioned several times, which I attribute largely to the 7 round reproduction magazine. On firing the very first round the magazine fell out. I had not rammed it fully "home." Later a spent casing stove piped with the rear going into the chamber. The range attendant had to help me clear this. Another stovepipe happened but I was able to clear it out easily. At one point into the session the firing pin failed to engage; I was there with a loaded chamber pulling the trigger and it did not fire. I unloaded the weapon and removed and reinstalled the side plate. After doing that this malfunction did not repeat. Although the hold open always worked after the final shot, it also held the toggle open 2 additional times before the magazine was empty. What kind of magazine would obviate these malfunctions? As far as performance, it shoots very tight. The trigger pull is decent. You can squeeze the trigger and touch it off without spoiling the aim. I had disassembled it, cleaned it and lightly oiled it prior to going to the range. The parts all fit together very tight and the piece is extremely solid. Despite the initial malfunctions it is still a sweet weapon and could be very accurate.

11-22-2010, 09:30 PM	#13
rivieraranch User Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: South Florida Posts: 101 Thanks: 4 Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts	Your "41" dated receiver was probably the "donor" part during the rebuild. That partially accounts for removal of the firing proofs, and appearance of the serial number stamped into the left front of the receiver (which may be engraved rather than stamped). On the underside of the receiver corresponding to the chamber area it is marked "9mm para" with an East German proof mark like the one under the takedown lever. I can't see the bottom of the barrel. Does this also have your serial number stamped in it? Does the witness mark lineup with the receiver? I don't know what a witness mark is. But there is a little notch on the barrel and receiver that line up. Someone went to great pains to make this appear to be a pristine all matching Luger. I noticed in taking it apart the the hold open is serial numbered 32, which is umatching. I would like to see a closeup of the serial number on the front of the frame. Is the second digit overstamped? I have a 1936 that has a serial number factory overstamped in that area. Would be interesting to see if that happened again. I will get those photos tomorrow if possible. Marc[/QUOTE] Thanks for the advice. Last edited by rivieraranch; 11-22-2010 at 09:31 PM. Reason: font

11-24-2010, 07:01 PM	#14
rivieraranch User Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: South Florida Posts: 101 Thanks: 4 Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts	Here are some snaps of the front of the frame. Attached Thumbnails

11-24-2010, 08:19 PM	#15
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,920 Thanks: 1,377 Thanked 3,135 Times in 1,518 Posts	Jim, Thanks for posting the CUs of the serial number. It does look like this was overstamped, and it might be in a way similar to what my 1936 looks like. In my case, they had stamped one of the digits in the wrong order, then corrected the error with an overstamp of the right digit. Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

11-25-2010, 11:02 AM	#16
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 737 Times in 484 Posts	Marc, Nice looking shooter. Judging by the alinement of digits on your frame serial, I would guess that it too has been renumbered. You might want to try a new Mecgar mag (instock @$35) and new HO spring @$25, to see if these solve your funstion problems. If not, I also repair lugers and find the one that are not matching factory original, usually have some problems. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

11-25-2010, 02:34 PM	#17
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,920 Thanks: 1,377 Thanked 3,135 Times in 1,518 Posts	My 1936... Hey Tom, Jim has the new Luger, not me! Here's a picture of the 1936 that I recently acquired. Consensus on the forum was that the overstamp took place at the factory at the time of manufacture. Marc Attached Thumbnails __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

12-02-2010, 10:23 PM	#18
rivieraranch User Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: South Florida Posts: 101 Thanks: 4 Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts	This is another '41 S/42' listed on Gunbroker. http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=201962304 Auction # 201962304 Wonder if mine looked similar before the re-do.

12-02-2010, 10:39 PM	#19
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,417 Thanks: 226 Thanked 2,607 Times in 933 Posts	Hi Jim, That Gunbroker item you posted is a very interesting gun. To call it mismatched is the under statement of the year! The frame is from a pre 1919 Erfurt, the toggle train from a 1939 or earlier Mauser, and the receiver from a 1941 Mauser. If that wasn't enough, the small parts all come from different guns. Regards, Norm

12-02-2010, 10:43 PM	#20
rivieraranch User Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: South Florida Posts: 101 Thanks: 4 Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts	I thought I saw some of those East German Police proofs on the Gunbroker item; that little bird that looks like a chicken.