Introductions with pics of my recent heirloom

R|M|D Photography · 01-17-2011, 03:18 PM

Hello everyone, my name is Ryan. Well I finally got it! My grandfather was in WWII in Nazi germany and brought home two takebacks. One was a Mauser Model 98 and then this one. I have cleaned it up and its in great shape. So far from the markings I believe its a Krieghoff Early type Navy gun. It is numbers matching except the barrels. It has 3 barrels, a 3", 5" and 7" (guesstimate) along with a secondary bolt/cocking lever and 4 magazines. I promised my grandma I would not put any serial number on the internet(she has a real concern about this for some reason) so I photoshopped them out and left the crest stamps.

And a couple photos. I will post more with the markings later to help verify my findings though.

Thor · 01-17-2011, 04:18 PM

The frame has P.08 on the side, indicates Mauser Army or Commercial Luger of 1941 or 1942 vintage. What does the top look like 41, or 42 Chamber date? 42 or byf or S/42 on top of the front toggle link?

sheepherder · 01-17-2011, 04:38 PM

Well, the long barrel is an artillery barrel, but the loose toggle has a sight, so it's not a match...nor is it a navy...What rear toggle is on the pistol??? Does it have a rear sight???

Odd that your grandmother does not want the serial on the Web...Does she expect someone else to claim it???

R|M|D Photography · 01-17-2011, 04:49 PM

I will have to look when I get home, but I remember the BYF on top. I know on the front right of the slide there is a more detailed spread winged eagle carrying a circle and then two less detailed eagles with some numbers below to the left of it. You can kind of see them in the photo. Here is a link to a full size of the first pic to better see it. http://m.flickr.com/photos/rmd_photography/5362457751/

R|M|D Photography · 01-17-2011, 05:14 PM

I appologise, I know where I got the Navy thing from. The barrel that is currently on it has the crown looking hexagon with the letter M below it.

sheepherder · 01-17-2011, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by R|M|D Photography

I appologise, I know where I got the Navy thing from. The barrel that is currently on it has the crown looking hexagon with the letter M below it.

But is the rear sight on the toggle a 2-position adjustable sight or a fixed V-notch sight???

Picture on Flickr is not viewable...

R|M|D Photography · 01-17-2011, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by postino

But is the rear sight on the toggle a 2-position adjustable sight or a fixed V-notch sight???

Picture on Flickr is not viewable...

No it's just a fixed v-notch :-/

Okay, to help with identifying it let me just say regardless of what my dad told me last night(lol), the toggle serial does not match the rest of the gun.

I printed out the identification form from the tech info page and I will list it out here.

1. Toggle inscription: BYF
2. Chamber inscription: 42
3. Toggle knob type: knurled
4. Grip safety: none
5. Stock Lug: yes
6. Caliber: 9mm
7. Grip type: Walnut Checkered no border
8. Thumb safety: on in rear position with white Gesichert written under lever
9. Describe markings: eagles matching proof #47 on right side of chamber with the number 135 below two of the eagles.
10. Barrel length: 5.75" with markings mathing proof #5
11. Markings on left of extractor: eagle with circle below but it's pretty shallow.
12. Description of sights: front- side mounted dovetail fixed. Rear- fixed V-notch.
13. I have 4 different magazines so we won't worry about that for now.

alanint · 01-17-2011, 10:53 PM

What you have is a parts gun and therefore a nice shooter with no real collector value. Was your Grandfather a gunsmith or particularly handy with tools? The entire collection looks like it was meant to occasionally swap out barrels on this single pistol or he intended to aquire two more frames and build up one of each barrel length.
Interesting collection..

Edward Tinker · 01-18-2011, 12:47 AM

From these pictures, it appears that you have two bakelite fxo magazines, and then the other two, I would be interested in seeing their bases?

One appears to be a flat button follower (made for the police for a short time).

Ed

R|M|D Photography · 01-18-2011, 12:14 PM

I will try to get a photo of the mags and their bases for ya.

Thanks everyone for your info!

Worth a lot or not I am still VERY happy with it and it's in great shape! I have been wanting this gun since I first saw it when I was a kid.

I will probably try to find some accessories to go with it to make it a fun shooter. Maybe a repro stock and try to find a rear sight to match the artillery barrel.

wlyon · 01-18-2011, 01:08 PM

Just realize that the way it is now it is illegal to attach a stock. Welcome to the forum. Bill

John Sabato · 01-18-2011, 02:14 PM

The barrel that is presently installed is a Navy Luger barrel and has the appropriate and extra high front sight base for that type gun, not the gun you have just inherited. What that means is that the gun will not shoot to the point of aim, but significantly low...

The only way to get your Luger to shoot to point of aim would be to install a barrel that had a correct front sight base. The only barrel of the ones in your photograph that would be correct is the shortest barrel. The front sight base correctly matches the standard rear sight V-notch that is on both rear toggles that you have pictured. Place the muzzle of the 4 inch barrel against the muzzle of the installed barrel to see this difference in height.

Changing a Luger barrel is not a job for an amateur gunsmith, or even a gunsmith who has not done it before...and I personally do not recommend that you try it.

The Luger frame is easily mis-aligned by the use of improper tools, and can be permanently damaged.

I suggest you read this thread to see what is involved in changing a Luger barrel...

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=25223

If you decide to install the proper 4 inch barrel, I would recommend you contact member LugerDoc, who has the proper tools and years of experience in barrel changes.

As Bill Lyons wrning above has pointed out, your Luger would not be legal to attach a shoulder stock, since it is a "parts" Luger and not listed on the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (BATFE) website as a Curio & Relic.

Attaching any type of shoulder stock to this gun, or any other Luger that is not on the C&R list BEFORE paying a $200 tax and registering it as a Short Barrled Rifle (SBR) would be a federal offense, punishable by both fine and imprisonment

... so please be careful about what you do with your heirloom...

sheepherder · 01-18-2011, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by R|M|D Photography

...and try to find a rear sight to match the artillery barrel.

The artillery barrel already has the proper rear sight...It does need a front sight, Tom Heller [LugerDoc] probably has a proper one...

...But both your rear toggles have fixed V-notch sights on them, which an artillery does not use (artillery rear toggles lack any sight)...

Tom should have one of those, too...and he has the tools & skill to change them...

then you would a really fun artillery shooter!!!

DaveinTN · 01-18-2011, 07:56 PM

Whoa! Wait a minute!

John, are you saying that the commercial shooter I bought from Hugh Clark a few years ago (with a 9 mm replacement barrel) that I've been taking to the range and occasionally (and conspicuously) shooting with a reproduction stock is illegal?

Oh say it isn't true!

Dave in TN.

R|M|D Photography · 01-18-2011, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wlyon

Just realize that the way it is now it is illegal to attach a stock. Welcome to the forum. Bill

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Sabato

The barrel that is presently installed is a Navy Luger barrel and has the appropriate and extra high front sight base for that type gun, not the gun you have just inherited. What that means is that the gun will not shoot to the point of aim, but significantly low...

The only way to get your Luger to shoot to point of aim would be to install a barrel that had a correct front sight base. The only barrel of the ones in your photograph that would be correct is the shortest barrel. The front sight base correctly matches the standard rear sight V-notch that is on both rear toggles that you have pictured. Place the muzzle of the 4 inch barrel against the muzzle of the installed barrel to see this difference in height.

Changing a Luger barrel is not a job for an amateur gunsmith, or even a gunsmith who has not done it before...and I personally do not recommend that you try it.

The Luger frame is easily mis-aligned by the use of improper tools, and can be permanently damaged.

I suggest you read this thread to see what is involved in changing a Luger barrel...

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=25223

If you decide to install the proper 4 inch barrel, I would recommend you contact member LugerDoc, who has the proper tools and years of experience in barrel changes.

As Bill Lyons wrning above has pointed out, your Luger would not be legal to attach a shoulder stock, since it is a "parts" Luger and not listed on the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (BATFE) website as a Curio & Relic.

Attaching any type of shoulder stock to this gun, or any other Luger that is not on the C&R list BEFORE paying a $200 tax and registering it as a Short Barrled Rifle (SBR) would be a federal offense, punishable by both fine and imprisonment

... so please be careful about what you do with your heirloom...

Thank you gentleman. And yes, I am well aware of the legalities, but if I do so it would just be for display in my home so I'm not worried.

And thanks for the tip on the mounted barrel's sight being too high, this was a fact I had overlooked! I think I will try to find the front sight and have the artillery barrel mounted as suggested below!

Quote:

Originally Posted by postino

The artillery barrel already has the proper rear sight...It does need a front sight, Tom Heller [LugerDoc] probably has a proper one...

...But both your rear toggles have fixed V-notch sights on them, which an artillery does not use (artillery rear toggles lack any sight)...

Tom should have one of those, too...and he has the tools & skill to change them...

then you would a really fun artillery shooter!!!

Thanks and that's what I will do!

Quick question on that artillery barrel. What is the scale the rear sight uses? Meters x10? (I.e. 5 for 50 meters?)

Ron Wood · 01-18-2011, 08:31 PM

DaveinTN,
Unless your Luger has a 16" barrel, yep, it's illegal.

Norme · 01-18-2011, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by R|M|D Photography

Quick question on that artillery barrel. What is the scale the rear sight uses? Meters x10? (I.e. 5 for 50 meters?)

Hi Ryan, Those are 100 meter increments. An Artillery sight is adjustable to 800 meters. Regards, Norm.

R|M|D Photography · 01-18-2011, 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norme

Hi Ryan, Those are 100 meter increments. An Artillery sight is adjustable to 800 meters. Regards, Norm.

Holy cow! I couldn't even begin to fathom how bad of an MOA you would get at 800 meters! Lol

John Sabato · 01-19-2011, 09:08 AM

Quote:

Oh say it isn't true!

Sorry Dave... as Ron has advised above... it is probably illegal depending on it's configuration.

(Huh?)

If your gun was not appropriately manufactured as an artillery model (Erfurt or DWM) and dated during the period of original artillery model manufacture 1914-1918, then it is very likely that it is not legal.

So for example, WW2 Mauser/Kreighoff/Simpson made Lugers would not qualify as an Artillery model.

If it is a commercial Artillery model, then it might be.

If yours is simply a commercial Luger with a barrel shorter than 16" and is not listed on the BATFE C&R list, then GET YOURSELF an Artillery Model or you might sell the stock so you won't get tempted to do that again...

Time was (that's when old folks like me where young and Lugers were $100 or less) when possession of both a Luger shourlder stock and a non-C&R Luger could be viewed by the BATFE (and its predecessor organizations) as "constructive intent" to possess a "Short Barreled Rifle" without the proper tax documentation... not a good position to be in. It all depends on who the agent is, and what kind of mood he is in when you are "caught'... Don't take any chances...

Show a photo of the Luger in question (without the stock please!), and describe it's major markings, and we can better advise you.

Minnepiper · 01-30-2011, 08:43 PM

Not to thread hijack, but was 2 the bring back limit? I seem to remember hearing that from a old vet i worked with. I think he said when the ship pulled into New York they were told they would get in trouble for any undocumented souveniers, and lots of firearms went into the drink dockside.

01-17-2011, 03:18 PM	#1
R\|M\|D Photography User Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 7 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Introductions with pics of my recent heirloom Hello everyone, my name is Ryan. Well I finally got it! My grandfather was in WWII in Nazi germany and brought home two takebacks. One was a Mauser Model 98 and then this one. I have cleaned it up and its in great shape. So far from the markings I believe its a Krieghoff Early type Navy gun. It is numbers matching except the barrels. It has 3 barrels, a 3", 5" and 7" (guesstimate) along with a secondary bolt/cocking lever and 4 magazines. I promised my grandma I would not put any serial number on the internet(she has a real concern about this for some reason) so I photoshopped them out and left the crest stamps. And a couple photos. I will post more with the markings later to help verify my findings though. Attached Thumbnails

01-17-2011, 04:18 PM	#2
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	The frame has P.08 on the side, indicates Mauser Army or Commercial Luger of 1941 or 1942 vintage. What does the top look like 41, or 42 Chamber date? 42 or byf or S/42 on top of the front toggle link? __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email thor340@aol.com ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

01-17-2011, 04:38 PM	#3
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,197 Thanks: 1,416 Thanked 4,462 Times in 2,336 Posts	Well, the long barrel is an artillery barrel, but the loose toggle has a sight, so it's not a match...nor is it a navy...What rear toggle is on the pistol??? Does it have a rear sight??? Odd that your grandmother does not want the serial on the Web...Does she expect someone else to claim it??? __________________ I like my coffee the way I like my women... ...Cold and bitter...

01-18-2011, 12:47 AM	#9
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,966 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,595 Times in 2,116 Posts	From these pictures, it appears that you have two bakelite fxo magazines, and then the other two, I would be interested in seeing their bases? One appears to be a flat button follower (made for the police for a short time). Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

01-18-2011, 01:08 PM	#11
wlyon Lifer 2X Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: May 2005 Location: Somewhere in Montana Posts: 2,655 Thanks: 3,212 Thanked 2,619 Times in 971 Posts	Just realize that the way it is now it is illegal to attach a stock. Welcome to the forum. Bill __________________ Bill Lyon

01-17-2011, 04:49 PM	#4
R\|M\|D Photography User Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 7 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I will have to look when I get home, but I remember the BYF on top. I know on the front right of the slide there is a more detailed spread winged eagle carrying a circle and then two less detailed eagles with some numbers below to the left of it. You can kind of see them in the photo. Here is a link to a full size of the first pic to better see it. http://m.flickr.com/photos/rmd_photography/5362457751/

01-17-2011, 05:14 PM	#5
R\|M\|D Photography User Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 7 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I appologise, I know where I got the Navy thing from. The barrel that is currently on it has the crown looking hexagon with the letter M below it.

01-17-2011, 10:53 PM	#8
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,917 Times in 1,193 Posts	What you have is a parts gun and therefore a nice shooter with no real collector value. Was your Grandfather a gunsmith or particularly handy with tools? The entire collection looks like it was meant to occasionally swap out barrels on this single pistol or he intended to aquire two more frames and build up one of each barrel length. Interesting collection..

01-18-2011, 12:14 PM	#10
R\|M\|D Photography User Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 7 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I will try to get a photo of the mags and their bases for ya. Thanks everyone for your info! Worth a lot or not I am still VERY happy with it and it's in great shape! I have been wanting this gun since I first saw it when I was a kid. I will probably try to find some accessories to go with it to make it a fun shooter. Maybe a repro stock and try to find a rear sight to match the artillery barrel.

01-18-2011, 02:14 PM	#12
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	Add My welcome to the Lugerforum... and my cautions... The barrel that is presently installed is a Navy Luger barrel and has the appropriate and extra high front sight base for that type gun, not the gun you have just inherited. What that means is that the gun will not shoot to the point of aim, but significantly low... The only way to get your Luger to shoot to point of aim would be to install a barrel that had a correct front sight base. The only barrel of the ones in your photograph that would be correct is the shortest barrel. The front sight base correctly matches the standard rear sight V-notch that is on both rear toggles that you have pictured. Place the muzzle of the 4 inch barrel against the muzzle of the installed barrel to see this difference in height. Changing a Luger barrel is not a job for an amateur gunsmith, or even a gunsmith who has not done it before...and I personally do not recommend that you try it. The Luger frame is easily mis-aligned by the use of improper tools, and can be permanently damaged. I suggest you read this thread to see what is involved in changing a Luger barrel... http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=25223 If you decide to install the proper 4 inch barrel, I would recommend you contact member LugerDoc, who has the proper tools and years of experience in barrel changes. As Bill Lyons wrning above has pointed out, your Luger would not be legal to attach a shoulder stock, since it is a "parts" Luger and not listed on the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (BATFE) website as a Curio & Relic. Attaching any type of shoulder stock to this gun, or any other Luger that is not on the C&R list *BEFORE paying a $200 tax and registering it as a Short Barrled Rifle (SBR)* would be a federal offense, punishable by both fine and imprisonment ... so please be careful about what you do with your heirloom... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

01-18-2011, 07:56 PM	#14
DaveinTN User Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Tennessee Posts: 186 Thanks: 3 Thanked 15 Times in 11 Posts	Whoa! Wait a minute! John, are you saying that the commercial shooter I bought from Hugh Clark a few years ago (with a 9 mm replacement barrel) that I've been taking to the range and occasionally (and conspicuously) shooting with a reproduction stock is illegal? Oh say it isn't true! Dave in TN.

01-18-2011, 08:31 PM	#16
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,040 Thanks: 1,106 Thanked 5,257 Times in 1,724 Posts	DaveinTN, Unless your Luger has a 16" barrel, yep, it's illegal. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

01-30-2011, 08:43 PM	#20
Minnepiper User Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Brooklyn Park MN Posts: 21 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Not to thread hijack, but was 2 the bring back limit? I seem to remember hearing that from a old vet i worked with. I think he said when the ship pulled into New York they were told they would get in trouble for any undocumented souveniers, and lots of firearms went into the drink dockside.