Interesting Encounter...

mrerick · 06-21-2010, 09:10 PM

At the C&E gunshow in Raleigh NC yesterday, I encountered a seller that had three very nice looking Lugers.

One was a .30 Caliber American Eagle. He had that priced at about $5000...

The other two were priced in the $2750 range.

Both had almost flawless finishes. The light was low in the building, so I couldn't inspect them deeply. The safeties were not blued, yet the 1936 date Mauser didn't look like Rust bluing... I'm no expert. I did not see halos.

Two of the Lugers' muzzles had been re-crowned to a flat shape, and were left in the white.

So, when I asked him for contact information because I wanted to check with friends about what I had seen, he said he was selling them from a group purchased from an advanced collector, and was returning to California. He did not offer to give me contact information.

I walked away, but I am curious if anyone might be familiar with these?

Also, why would one re-crown a Luger in this way? How does this impact value?

Thanks - and sorry I don't have a better description of what I saw. The show prohibits photography...

Marc

Edward Tinker · 06-22-2010, 03:05 AM

I now take a small flashlight with me to gunshows.

You can see in the FAQ other ways to tell if something has been refinished. I have found that a buff and reblue is obvious; these restores by 5-10 people around the USA are almost impossible to distinguish, very frustrating.

A strong small flashlight (I have a small mag-lite at home, and recently have taken to using one of these small super multiple LED lights. You take a known era gun and a "very nice one" and shine the light on t and at an angle, turning it slowly. You should see a patina of rust, and almost it appears you can see under the bluing.

There would not be halo's on WW2 era lugers.

Ed

sheepherder · 06-22-2010, 06:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrerick

So, when I asked him for contact information because I wanted to check with friends about what I had seen, he said he was selling them from a group purchased from an advanced collector, and was returning to California. He did not offer to give me contact information.

That's odd...The vendors I visit at my local Rochester NY gun shows are quite ready to hand out cards...I have 4 or 5 scattered around my desk right now...

Quote:

The show prohibits photography...

My local venue has that restriction also. I've never understood it, and no one has ever come up with a plausible explanation...

John Sabato · 06-22-2010, 08:21 AM

My policy is: No ID credentials, or contact info---NO purchase. It isn't worth the risk if you don't know who you are dealing with. (The prices sounded high to me as well.)

Mauser720 · 06-22-2010, 10:24 AM

Marc -

The whole situation does sound very odd doesn't it? And your gut instinct that something is wrong is probably absolutely correct.

"Two of the Lugers' muzzles had been re-crowned to a flat shape, and were left in the white." - Well, that qualifies as having been "messed with" in the opinion of most collectors. Who knows what else might have happened to them. So even with this one single issue they would no longer be considered truly "collectable" (in my opinion).

I like Ed's suggestion about taking a small flashlight along to these shows.

mrerick · 06-22-2010, 10:44 AM

Thanks to all for your insights...

Ed, I am going to start taking a flashlight with me to shows. I've seen the sub-finish patina on my own original finish guns, which helps making the judgement...

John, that policy is exactly why I walked away. The people I have dealt with in the hobby have been straight forward and open.

I help staff a statewide gun rights organization's booth, so was at the show until late in the afternoon. Interestingly, 3 hours before the end of the show that person had packed up and left. Probably nothing sinister here, but it prevented my subsequent look at his wares.

Ron, I wasn't sure how a collector would interpret the re-crown modification, but assumed that it qualified the guns as messed with. I still can't imagine why someone would do it to Lugers in almost pristine condition. My guess was (and seems to be confirmed) that it was part of a rework - refinish - reblue that might have gone wrong in some way. It was also odd that the shape was left squared off instead of rounded.

As to an advanced collector... I think I've found the competent collectors right here...

Marc

06-21-2010, 09:10 PM	#1
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,920 Thanks: 1,377 Thanked 3,135 Times in 1,518 Posts	Interesting Encounter... At the C&E gunshow in Raleigh NC yesterday, I encountered a seller that had three very nice looking Lugers. One was a .30 Caliber American Eagle. He had that priced at about $5000... The other two were priced in the $2750 range. Both had almost flawless finishes. The light was low in the building, so I couldn't inspect them deeply. The safeties were not blued, yet the 1936 date Mauser didn't look like Rust bluing... I'm no expert. I did not see halos. Two of the Lugers' muzzles had been re-crowned to a flat shape, and were left in the white. So, when I asked him for contact information because I wanted to check with friends about what I had seen, he said he was selling them from a group purchased from an advanced collector, and was returning to California. He did not offer to give me contact information. I walked away, but I am curious if anyone might be familiar with these? Also, why would one re-crown a Luger in this way? How does this impact value? Thanks - and sorry I don't have a better description of what I saw. The show prohibits photography... Marc

06-22-2010, 03:05 AM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,965 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,594 Times in 2,116 Posts	I now take a small flashlight with me to gunshows. You can see in the FAQ other ways to tell if something has been refinished. I have found that a buff and reblue is obvious; these restores by 5-10 people around the USA are almost impossible to distinguish, very frustrating. A strong small flashlight (I have a small mag-lite at home, and recently have taken to using one of these small super multiple LED lights. You take a known era gun and a "very nice one" and shine the light on t and at an angle, turning it slowly. You should see a patina of rust, and almost it appears you can see under the bluing. There would not be halo's on WW2 era lugers. Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

06-22-2010, 08:21 AM	#4
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,155 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	My policy is: No ID credentials, or contact info---NO purchase. It isn't worth the risk if you don't know who you are dealing with. (The prices sounded high to me as well.) __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

06-22-2010, 10:24 AM	#5
Mauser720 User Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Kansas Posts: 535 Thanks: 18 Thanked 49 Times in 33 Posts	Marc - The whole situation does sound very odd doesn't it? And your gut instinct that something is wrong is probably absolutely correct. "Two of the Lugers' muzzles had been re-crowned to a flat shape, and were left in the white." - Well, that qualifies as having been "messed with" in the opinion of most collectors. Who knows what else might have happened to them. So even with this one single issue they would no longer be considered truly "collectable" (in my opinion). I like Ed's suggestion about taking a small flashlight along to these shows. __________________ Mauser720 - Ron "Those who do not know history are doomed to repeat it."

06-22-2010, 10:44 AM	#6
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,920 Thanks: 1,377 Thanked 3,135 Times in 1,518 Posts	Thanks to all for your insights... Ed, I am going to start taking a flashlight with me to shows. I've seen the sub-finish patina on my own original finish guns, which helps making the judgement... John, that policy is exactly why I walked away. The people I have dealt with in the hobby have been straight forward and open. I help staff a statewide gun rights organization's booth, so was at the show until late in the afternoon. Interestingly, 3 hours before the end of the show that person had packed up and left. Probably nothing sinister here, but it prevented my subsequent look at his wares. Ron, I wasn't sure how a collector would interpret the re-crown modification, but assumed that it qualified the guns as messed with. I still can't imagine why someone would do it to Lugers in almost pristine condition. My guess was (and seems to be confirmed) that it was part of a rework - refinish - reblue that might have gone wrong in some way. It was also odd that the shape was left squared off instead of rounded. As to an advanced collector... I think I've found the competent collectors right here... Marc