What the Heck is this thing?

azlaw · 04-21-2010, 11:29 PM

Saw this at a gun shop today. Looks like an M30 copy made by Norinco in the 1980s or 1990s. Not a bad effort if so. Anybody know anything about these things?

alvin · 04-22-2010, 12:02 AM

This is so called "TU 711" (not sure where "TU" came from, sounds like a Soviet bomber). Schnellfeuer is considered being a Machine Gun in the U.S. of A, Chinese had tons of Schnellfeuers and would like to convert those old guns back into money. The solution was making a new frame, removing the 2nd sear, firing control switch etc, to create a semi-auto for exporting to the U.S.

To make it more interesting, the five Hanzi on the left side of this one, read from left to right, first three characters are "Selbstlader" (by sound of stlader), last two are "Handgun" or "Pistole" (by meaning). The curved wheel etc on the right was to mimic logo of an old Nationalist arsenal, I forgot the name. But this thing is newly made and assembled. Making it work out of box requires some skill.

Importing of Chinese guns was banned in Clinton era. So, there are still many Schnellfeuers survived in China in original but poor shape. Don't know that's good news or bad news. One good side, not all Schnell were converted into TU 711. On bad side, there will be no more TU 711 imported (some would say that's good news as well because with limited supply TU will also increase in value over time, but I would leave that to the reader)

azlaw · 04-22-2010, 12:59 AM

I see what you are saying, but I looked this thing over pretty carefully - I seriously doubt that any of the parts was made in Germany - no proof marks, maker marks, nothing, and the quality was not to the German standards. It looked to me like the whol gun was made at the same time, not a later made frame fitted to an older slide. Maybe the Chinese ran out of Schnellfeur parts and just started making whole guns?

H

alvin · 04-22-2010, 05:07 AM

The barrel and lock frame are supposed coming from German guns. Small parts are hard to say, could be replacement. It's a parts gun, whatever roughly fits goes in, whatever misses has a replacement.

I don't think Chinese made whole gun. No need to do that and no driving force to do that. First, there were tons of these there waiting to be dumped into blast furnace. Second, these were sold very cheap to wholeseller. No one had desire or obligation to make foreign collector happy, that's not the business goal. The business goal was to squeeze last drop of value out of those guns at the lowest possible cost. If dumping into furnace, the value would be measured by weight in the unit of ton. Dumping to U.S. was obviously a better choice.

Making a serious gun from scratch requires lots of work, making a few parts and assembling from parts... even small airgun factory could do it. And, look at this quality -- this is not serious arsenal quality, even from Chinese standard.

====

[Edit] Book value is listed in Blue Book. Suggest consulting that before acquiring. There are a bunch of "TU" titled ones, this is one of them. There are a series unrelated stuffs under that category.

alvin · 04-22-2010, 06:03 AM

Curiously, is this 9m/m? Many of them were rebored to 9m/m probably because original bore was bad enough. Understandably, who would clean up the bore everyday in the past.... I saw many of these coming with new 9m/m bore. Most rebored fine, but a few that I met have the hole not in the middle of the barrel.

conehammer · 04-24-2010, 01:25 AM

I recall these and when they came out. I knew some guys who had them. As Alvin said
it took some skill and perseverance to get them to run right. Most of those I knew dumped them. One still has one but hasn't tried firing it since first purchased. At one time he asked my help in turning it into a desk lamp which we never did.

There's a chance that this one has been debugged or maybe always worked however balance that with the chance it might just be a bowzer. I'd suggest waiting for a pleasantly restored
run of the mill 1930 comm from China. Better as a shooter.

Jerry

azlaw · 04-24-2010, 02:43 AM

In looking at the gun in person, there is no question in my mind that it was all made at the same time in China, and is not a German top on a Chinese frame. I repeat that non of the parts quality looked consistent with German parts, and no German proof or other makes were in evidence.

The mag fit was pretty loose, and the bore looked to be unevenly struck.

Asking $700, a German gun is a no-brainer. I find it easy to believe that this would be a project gun.

H

alvin · 04-24-2010, 06:13 AM

H -- Let's take a closer look to this barrel/receiver structure. As you can see, the receiver rail had milled slots in the past, almost totally erased now, but trace is still there. Also look at the area between barrel and receiver, the signature shape matches Schnellfeuer. Look at the barrel length, being correct, it's 132m/m. Look at the right side of the chamber, being correct again, you find trace of erased s/n.

Rarely in Chinese firearm replication history, things were replicated so correctly. And, you won't find "m", "S", etc -- this barrel was heavily sanded.

===

[Edit] Also, if you disassemble the gun and turn the receiver over, you will find the milled slot on the right is slightly longer than the slot on the left. Why? It was milled longer to fit the 2nd sear which does not exist on semi-auto anymore.

04-21-2010, 11:29 PM	#1
azlaw User Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Tucson, AZ Posts: 207 Thanks: 1 Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts	What the Heck is this thing? Saw this at a gun shop today. Looks like an M30 copy made by Norinco in the 1980s or 1990s. Not a bad effort if so. Anybody know anything about these things?

04-22-2010, 12:02 AM	#2
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	This is so called "TU 711" (not sure where "TU" came from, sounds like a Soviet bomber). Schnellfeuer is considered being a Machine Gun in the U.S. of A, Chinese had tons of Schnellfeuers and would like to convert those old guns back into money. The solution was making a new frame, removing the 2nd sear, firing control switch etc, to create a semi-auto for exporting to the U.S. To make it more interesting, the five Hanzi on the left side of this one, read from left to right, first three characters are "Selbstlader" (by sound of stlader), last two are "Handgun" or "Pistole" (by meaning). The curved wheel etc on the right was to mimic logo of an old Nationalist arsenal, I forgot the name. But this thing is newly made and assembled. Making it work out of box requires some skill. Importing of Chinese guns was banned in Clinton era. So, there are still many Schnellfeuers survived in China in original but poor shape. Don't know that's good news or bad news. One good side, not all Schnell were converted into TU 711. On bad side, there will be no more TU 711 imported (some would say that's good news as well because with limited supply TU will also increase in value over time, but I would leave that to the reader)

04-22-2010, 12:59 AM	#3
azlaw User Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Tucson, AZ Posts: 207 Thanks: 1 Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts	I see what you are saying, but I looked this thing over pretty carefully - I seriously doubt that any of the parts was made in Germany - no proof marks, maker marks, nothing, and the quality was not to the German standards. It looked to me like the whol gun was made at the same time, not a later made frame fitted to an older slide. Maybe the Chinese ran out of Schnellfeur parts and just started making whole guns? H

04-22-2010, 05:07 AM	#4
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	The barrel and lock frame are supposed coming from German guns. Small parts are hard to say, could be replacement. It's a parts gun, whatever roughly fits goes in, whatever misses has a replacement. I don't think Chinese made whole gun. No need to do that and no driving force to do that. First, there were tons of these there waiting to be dumped into blast furnace. Second, these were sold very cheap to wholeseller. No one had desire or obligation to make foreign collector happy, that's not the business goal. The business goal was to squeeze last drop of value out of those guns at the lowest possible cost. If dumping into furnace, the value would be measured by weight in the unit of ton. Dumping to U.S. was obviously a better choice. Making a serious gun from scratch requires lots of work, making a few parts and assembling from parts... even small airgun factory could do it. And, look at this quality -- this is not serious arsenal quality, even from Chinese standard. ==== [Edit] Book value is listed in Blue Book. Suggest consulting that before acquiring. There are a bunch of "TU" titled ones, this is one of them. There are a series unrelated stuffs under that category.

04-22-2010, 06:03 AM	#5
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Curiously, is this 9m/m? Many of them were rebored to 9m/m probably because original bore was bad enough. Understandably, who would clean up the bore everyday in the past.... I saw many of these coming with new 9m/m bore. Most rebored fine, but a few that I met have the hole not in the middle of the barrel.

04-24-2010, 01:25 AM	#6
conehammer User Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 116 Thanks: 1 Thanked 55 Times in 21 Posts	I recall these and when they came out. I knew some guys who had them. As Alvin said it took some skill and perseverance to get them to run right. Most of those I knew dumped them. One still has one but hasn't tried firing it since first purchased. At one time he asked my help in turning it into a desk lamp which we never did. There's a chance that this one has been debugged or maybe always worked however balance that with the chance it might just be a bowzer. I'd suggest waiting for a pleasantly restored run of the mill 1930 comm from China. Better as a shooter. Jerry

04-24-2010, 02:43 AM	#7
azlaw User Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Tucson, AZ Posts: 207 Thanks: 1 Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts	In looking at the gun in person, there is no question in my mind that it was all made at the same time in China, and is not a German top on a Chinese frame. I repeat that non of the parts quality looked consistent with German parts, and no German proof or other makes were in evidence. The mag fit was pretty loose, and the bore looked to be unevenly struck. Asking $700, a German gun is a no-brainer. I find it easy to believe that this would be a project gun. H

04-24-2010, 06:13 AM	#8
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	H -- Let's take a closer look to this barrel/receiver structure. As you can see, the receiver rail had milled slots in the past, almost totally erased now, but trace is still there. Also look at the area between barrel and receiver, the signature shape matches Schnellfeuer. Look at the barrel length, being correct, it's 132m/m. Look at the right side of the chamber, being correct again, you find trace of erased s/n. Rarely in Chinese firearm replication history, things were replicated so correctly. And, you won't find "m", "S", etc -- this barrel was heavily sanded. === [Edit] Also, if you disassemble the gun and turn the receiver over, you will find the milled slot on the right is slightly longer than the slot on the left. Why? It was milled longer to fit the 2nd sear which does not exist on semi-auto anymore.