How to deal with pitting and how much is too much?

louielouie · 01-08-2010, 10:14 PM

I didn't know I had such pitting until I removed the grips on my Luger.

I would like to be able to fix the pistol up but I am not sure how to deal with deep pitting or how to tell how much is too much.

I took some photos, but they are not real clear. You can see the rust for sure.

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Any ideas on how best to stop the rest and then re-blue or ?

Thanks,
louielouie

alvin · 01-08-2010, 10:36 PM

I am playing with this. The traditional solution is removing rust chemically, TIG welding over pits, and then machining it. Of course, not easy, currently I can only make things looking worse, not better. But, anything has a starting point.

There are professionals offering service in this domain.

Ron Wood · 01-08-2010, 10:42 PM

1. Do not reblue.
2. Soak the rust with oil...even 3in1 will do.
3. With plenty of oil, remove the active red rust with 0000 steel wool. Do not be over agressive when rubbing...patience will reward your efforts.
4. Repeatedly wipe down the treated surfaces with a clean cloth until you can't remove any more color. Wipe down one more time and lightly oil or silicone spray and replace the grips.
5. Live with the pitting under the grips. It is part of the gun's unfortunate heritage, but it is history none-the-less.
6. Rejoice in the fact that you have preserved one more artifact from an earlier era for future generations.

Edward Tinker · 01-09-2010, 12:16 AM

Sure don't tig weld or reblue anything as slight as this....

louielouie · 01-09-2010, 07:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Wood

1. Do not reblue.
2. Soak the rust with oil...even 3in1 will do.
3. With plenty of oil, remove the active red rust with 0000 steel wool. Do not be over agressive when rubbing...patience will reward your efforts.
4. Repeatedly wipe down the treated surfaces with a clean cloth until you can't remove any more color. Wipe down one more time and lightly oil or silicone spray and replace the grips.
5. Live with the pitting under the grips. It is part of the gun's unfortunate heritage, but it is history none-the-less.
6. Rejoice in the fact that you have preserved one more artifact from an earlier era for future generations.

===========================================
I don't kinow anything about Lugers (obviously) and I have a book on order but it's not here yet.

Can I do the rust removal and then have the pistol blued?Some parts have never been blued or coated.

I am not going to hold anyone legally responsible for their answer, but can you tell if the pistol is safe to shoot with the pitting as it is?

louielouie

alvin · 01-09-2010, 07:59 AM

Blue over pits makes the appearence worse, not better.

If the rust and pits are on grip only (not uncommon, because wood panel attracts moisture), I don't think they affect shooting. But please note that with all those rust on grip, the main spring on this gun is shiny, looks like a replacement. If this replaced main spring is out of spec, the gun would probably have functional issue.

[Side Q: What's the specified parameters of main spring on 9mm Parabellum. Initial tension, how many newtons per centimeter compression, etc?]

louielouie · 01-11-2010, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alvin

Blue over pits makes the appearence worse, not better.

If the rust and pits are on grip only (not uncommon, because wood panel attracts moisture), I don't think they affect shooting. But please note that with all those rust on grip, the main spring on this gun is shiny, looks like a replacement. If this replaced main spring is out of spec, the gun would probably have functional issue.

[Side Q: What's the specified parameters of main spring on 9mm Parabellum. Initial tension, how many newtons per centimeter compression, etc?]

alvin,

MY main concern is, will the frame stand up to repeated trips to the range because I bought it as a shooter?

Sometimes the toggle doesn't want to close all the way when I pull it back about a half inch to set the trigger.

Is this normal or could it be part of a new spring issue?

louielouie

Ron Wood · 01-11-2010, 05:16 PM

It is normal. Only partially opening the action does not place enough tension on the mainspring to completely return the toggle to battery. Not only does the action not have enough inertia to fully close, it is also working against the firing pin spring while closing.
The pitting on the grip frame, in itself, will not make the gun unsafe to shoot. There is plenty of metal left. Removing the pits and rebluing the frame isn't going to make it any stronger.

alvin · 01-11-2010, 05:37 PM

To prove Ron being right, I tried on a gun. At you can see, a few millimeters compression on main spring (RHS) won't close the bolt.

Ron Wood · 01-11-2010, 08:51 PM

Way to go Alvin. You are getting very good at understanding and illustrating the finer points.

Hawkeye · 01-16-2010, 12:21 PM

The Metalizer i posted about is a wonderful way to restore a pitted Firearm .
The shop i know of that uses this machine for industrial Pump Parts also gave me some Hydralloy ,.it is similar to Nicklealloy or Chromealloy type Rods in that it has the Flux made onto the rod.
With an Acetylene Torch i didn't have to even get the Metal all that hot , Its a flowing build up process not a welding process.
In other words it builds up surfaces so they can be Milled down to Spec once more. Like the Back Plate on a Mission centrifugal Pump .
The rod i was using was 41/40 steel ,i was eliminating pits on a C96 and i spread the Metal so thin i used Files to shape the Frame up like new.
If you clean the Parts good enough this stuff will just flow into a pit and harden as soon as you move the heat off it.
The Machinist said this is how it has been done for years and it wasn't anything New . Their is even a Bauxite mix that you can use on Aluminum also , but you better be good at Brazing with a Torch to use any of it.

FNorm · 01-16-2010, 02:51 PM

I found it somewhere on this Forum. I like the big 45 pads. They remove rust but not the blueing.

https://www.big45metalcleaner.com/Order/

louielouie · 01-17-2010, 04:28 PM

Thank you everyone who responded. Being a newby I know I am going to be asking more questions, and hopefully someday I will be able to answer a few questions.

louielouie

SIGP2101 · 01-19-2010, 12:41 PM

Remove rust chemically first. Use Evaporust.
http://www.nicks.ca/evap-2.html

Dwight Gruber · 01-19-2010, 02:00 PM

Big 45 is really terrific on rust-blued surfaces. Be aware that it will leave marks on bare metal, almost like a brushed-metal finish. I haven't had the nerve to try it on one of my collectible guns, and it would be interesting to hear how it works on salt-blue.

--Dwight

mvray · 02-11-2010, 03:05 AM

Hello
I am new to the group, so I don't know where everything is yet. I am interested in your description of Metalizing below. I sprayed quiet a bit of Chromalloy 20 years ago, but that was powder. You are saying this is rod, and it builds up with 4140? Where do you get it, and where can I get some data on it. I have a couple of "Frankenlugers" I am going to put together from receivers I have recently acquired. Two of them have pitting and I would be interested in getting rid of it if I can. I am hesitant to use any of the products I am aware of, the metilizing powers I used were aluminum nickel alloys, and just a straight welding build up would be with welding rod and I don't know if the finishes would match.
On an similar note my Father brought home an Artillery from WWII. After the Bulge he was put on light duty in an Engineering unit machine shop (he froze both feet) where he learned to Metalize. For some reason he built up the entire barrel, I never thought to ask why. And of course it is too late now. It is amazing how often I have wished I could say "you remember all that stuff you tried to tell me when I was 17 and already knew everything... I don't guess I could get you to repeat some of it..."

Thanks

Marcus

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hawkeye

The Metalizer i posted about is a wonderful way to restore a pitted Firearm .
The shop i know of that uses this machine for industrial Pump Parts also gave me some Hydralloy ,.it is similar to Nicklealloy or Chromealloy type Rods in that it has the Flux made onto the rod.
With an Acetylene Torch i didn't have to even get the Metal all that hot , Its a flowing build up process not a welding process.
In other words it builds up surfaces so they can be Milled down to Spec once more. Like the Back Plate on a Mission centrifugal Pump .
The rod i was using was 41/40 steel ,i was eliminating pits on a C96 and i spread the Metal so thin i used Files to shape the Frame up like new.
If you clean the Parts good enough this stuff will just flow into a pit and harden as soon as you move the heat off it.
The Machinist said this is how it has been done for years and it wasn't anything New . Their is even a Bauxite mix that you can use on Aluminum also , but you better be good at Brazing with a Torch to use any of it.

A.Mifsin · 02-11-2010, 07:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Wood

1. Do not reblue.
2. Soak the rust with oil...even 3in1 will do.
3. With plenty of oil, remove the active red rust with 0000 steel wool. Do not be over agressive when rubbing...patience will reward your efforts.
4. Repeatedly wipe down the treated surfaces with a clean cloth until you can't remove any more color. Wipe down one more time and lightly oil or silicone spray and replace the grips.
5. Live with the pitting under the grips. It is part of the gun's unfortunate heritage, but it is history none-the-less.
6. Rejoice in the fact that you have preserved one more artifact from an earlier era for future generations.

If I were you I will take the adivice of Ron. He is one of the best experts in this forum.
Alf.

alvin · 02-11-2010, 07:23 AM

I played oxy welding, and TIG welding a little bit (not on guns, but on scrap steel). Oxy turned out being the hardest one to play and it's not a good choice. Talking about neat and quality, TIG can be great, no flux and super clean, and most important, it's a very confined process.

All low melting point filler metal that I have seen are not steel. Copper, silver, tin, etc, I am trying to image the end results..... cannot be too good.

wcmaas · 02-28-2010, 07:40 PM

Not meaning to hijack this thread but how much of a problem is moderate rust pitting of a bore?

alvin · 03-01-2010, 07:44 AM

I heard minor pitting in bore does not affect performance, but I had never tried one.

Sorry, I take it back. Once I had a Yugoslavian M48 which came to my hand with like-new bore, and I shot corrosive ammo. I was lazy one time and did not clean up the bore immediately after shooting (only 20-30 rounds were fired in that session). A few days later, I could see rust inside the bore. After cleaning, the bore was pitted. I have to say the rifle was not less accurate after this event, because the rifle had never been accurate at the beginning with like-new bore -- the performance of the rifle could not even compare with a pistol with stock attached at 50 yards. I am not a professional shooter, but I think that factor can be phased out, because it's same me operate those guns and I paid same amount of attention.

So, still no experience. I mean, no experience on a gun that was originally accurate, but later becoming less accurate with pitted bore.

====

After above mentioned M48 event, I realized how effective was corrosive ammo. Only 20-30 round shooting, plus a few days of no cleaning, is enough to damage the bore. Considering battle field condition, a pistol if ever used in battle condition, it's more likely having pitted bore today. That's almost a sufficient condtion.

01-08-2010, 10:14 PM	#1
louielouie User Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Southern Indiana Posts: 12 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	How to deal with pitting and how much is too much? I didn't know I had such pitting until I removed the grips on my Luger. I would like to be able to fix the pistol up but I am not sure how to deal with deep pitting or how to tell how much is too much. I took some photos, but they are not real clear. You can see the rust for sure. [ATTACH][/ATTACH] Any ideas on how best to stop the rest and then re-blue or ? Thanks, louielouie Attached Thumbnails Last edited by louielouie; 01-09-2010 at 07:43 AM. Reason: to be more clear.

01-08-2010, 10:42 PM	#3
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,040 Thanks: 1,106 Thanked 5,256 Times in 1,724 Posts	1. Do not reblue. 2. Soak the rust with oil...even 3in1 will do. 3. With plenty of oil, remove the active red rust with 0000 steel wool. Do not be over agressive when rubbing...patience will reward your efforts. 4. Repeatedly wipe down the treated surfaces with a clean cloth until you can't remove any more color. Wipe down one more time and lightly oil or silicone spray and replace the grips. 5. Live with the pitting under the grips. It is part of the gun's unfortunate heritage, but it is history none-the-less. 6. Rejoice in the fact that you have preserved one more artifact from an earlier era for future generations. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

01-11-2010, 05:16 PM	#8
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,040 Thanks: 1,106 Thanked 5,256 Times in 1,724 Posts	It is normal. Only partially opening the action does not place enough tension on the mainspring to completely return the toggle to battery. Not only does the action not have enough inertia to fully close, it is also working against the firing pin spring while closing. The pitting on the grip frame, in itself, will not make the gun unsafe to shoot. There is plenty of metal left. Removing the pits and rebluing the frame isn't going to make it any stronger. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction Last edited by Ron Wood; 01-11-2010 at 08:47 PM.

01-11-2010, 05:37 PM	#9
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	To prove Ron being right, I tried on a gun. At you can see, a few millimeters compression on main spring (RHS) won't close the bolt. Attached Thumbnails

01-11-2010, 08:51 PM	#10
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,040 Thanks: 1,106 Thanked 5,256 Times in 1,724 Posts	Way to go Alvin. You are getting very good at understanding and illustrating the finer points. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

01-08-2010, 10:36 PM	#2
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	I am playing with this. The traditional solution is removing rust chemically, TIG welding over pits, and then machining it. Of course, not easy, currently I can only make things looking worse, not better. But, anything has a starting point. There are professionals offering service in this domain.

01-09-2010, 12:16 AM	#4
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,966 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,595 Times in 2,116 Posts	Sure don't tig weld or reblue anything as slight as this....

01-09-2010, 07:59 AM	#6
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Blue over pits makes the appearence worse, not better. If the rust and pits are on grip only (not uncommon, because wood panel attracts moisture), I don't think they affect shooting. But please note that with all those rust on grip, the main spring on this gun is shiny, looks like a replacement. If this replaced main spring is out of spec, the gun would probably have functional issue. [Side Q: What's the specified parameters of main spring on 9mm Parabellum. Initial tension, how many newtons per centimeter compression, etc?]

01-16-2010, 12:21 PM	#11
Hawkeye User Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 14 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	The Metalizer i posted about is a wonderful way to restore a pitted Firearm . The shop i know of that uses this machine for industrial Pump Parts also gave me some Hydralloy ,.it is similar to Nicklealloy or Chromealloy type Rods in that it has the Flux made onto the rod. With an Acetylene Torch i didn't have to even get the Metal all that hot , Its a flowing build up process not a welding process. In other words it builds up surfaces so they can be Milled down to Spec once more. Like the Back Plate on a Mission centrifugal Pump . The rod i was using was 41/40 steel ,i was eliminating pits on a C96 and i spread the Metal so thin i used Files to shape the Frame up like new. If you clean the Parts good enough this stuff will just flow into a pit and harden as soon as you move the heat off it. The Machinist said this is how it has been done for years and it wasn't anything New . Their is even a Bauxite mix that you can use on Aluminum also , but you better be good at Brazing with a Torch to use any of it.

01-16-2010, 02:51 PM	#12
FNorm Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 978 Thanks: 68 Thanked 127 Times in 108 Posts	I found it somewhere on this Forum. I like the big 45 pads. They remove rust but not the blueing. https://www.big45metalcleaner.com/Order/

01-17-2010, 04:28 PM	#13
louielouie User Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Southern Indiana Posts: 12 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thank you everyone who responded. Being a newby I know I am going to be asking more questions, and hopefully someday I will be able to answer a few questions. louielouie

01-19-2010, 12:41 PM	#14
SIGP2101 User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Canada Posts: 256 Thanks: 74 Thanked 67 Times in 32 Posts	Remove rust chemically first. Use Evaporust. http://www.nicks.ca/evap-2.html

01-19-2010, 02:00 PM	#15
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,908 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,330 Times in 435 Posts	Big 45 is really terrific on rust-blued surfaces. Be aware that it will leave marks on bare metal, almost like a brushed-metal finish. I haven't had the nerve to try it on one of my collectible guns, and it would be interesting to hear how it works on salt-blue. --Dwight

02-11-2010, 07:23 AM	#18
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	I played oxy welding, and TIG welding a little bit (not on guns, but on scrap steel). Oxy turned out being the hardest one to play and it's not a good choice. Talking about neat and quality, TIG can be great, no flux and super clean, and most important, it's a very confined process. All low melting point filler metal that I have seen are not steel. Copper, silver, tin, etc, I am trying to image the end results..... cannot be too good.

02-28-2010, 07:40 PM	#19
wcmaas User Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Orange County, CA Posts: 22 Thanks: 8 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Not meaning to hijack this thread but how much of a problem is moderate rust pitting of a bore? __________________ Bill Vocatus atque non vocatus, Deus aderit. NRA Member and Certified Instructor

03-01-2010, 07:44 AM	#20
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	I heard minor pitting in bore does not affect performance, but I had never tried one. Sorry, I take it back. Once I had a Yugoslavian M48 which came to my hand with like-new bore, and I shot corrosive ammo. I was lazy one time and did not clean up the bore immediately after shooting (only 20-30 rounds were fired in that session). A few days later, I could see rust inside the bore. After cleaning, the bore was pitted. I have to say the rifle was not less accurate after this event, because the rifle had never been accurate at the beginning with like-new bore -- the performance of the rifle could not even compare with a pistol with stock attached at 50 yards. I am not a professional shooter, but I think that factor can be phased out, because it's same me operate those guns and I paid same amount of attention. So, still no experience. I mean, no experience on a gun that was originally accurate, but later becoming less accurate with pitted bore. ==== After above mentioned M48 event, I realized how effective was corrosive ammo. Only 20-30 round shooting, plus a few days of no cleaning, is enough to damage the bore. Considering battle field condition, a pistol if ever used in battle condition, it's more likely having pitted bore today. That's almost a sufficient condtion.