Something special, I think!

[maddog350gt]

Hi all,
It’s been a while since I spent much time on the forum, but I wanted to share this recent find from the Portland Oregon gun show. I have tried to show as much detail in the pictures as I can. My photo set up still leaves something to be desired. If you need more, or different shots let me know, I will try to get them.
What I found was a 1902 AE Fat Barrel that has been worked over extensively to “improve its appearance”. This is one of the gaudiest reworks I have ever seen (although Dwight Gruber said from the preliminary picture I sent him that I was being too hard on it). In some defense to the person who did this there are some very deep pits on the chamber that indicate that the gun was in very poor condition. What is most intriguing is that from the serial number, 22426, this appears to be one of the 13 un-accounted for Cartridge Counter Test Guns. I know there is a possibility this gun is a fake, as I understand there were a lot of them around, but I don’t see anything at this point that is inconsistent with an original. I didn’t pay a lot for the gun so the guy I bought it from (the one who did the refinish) didn’t make huge windfall on it. I didn’t set the price on the gun, it had a price on it when I walked up to the sellers table. The owner wasn’t at the show, his sons or son-in-laws (I’m not sure which) were showing the gun but the owner had set the price. I told them that whoever had done the refinish had ruined a very voluble gun (I thought it was just a 1902 AE). Un-refinished and in poor condition I told them it would have been worth a minimum of a couple of thousand dollars. They didn’t seem upset and said they had tried to talk the owner out of the refinish and kind of relished the idea of telling him “I told you so”. I felt the refinish had taken the collector value out of the gun (at that time I didn’t realize it was in the cartridge counter serial range and I hadn’t done an in-depth inspection) I paid them what they were asking and I bought it as a conversation piece and a shooter. It wasn’t until I got back to my table and looked up the serial number in the blue book that I found it to be in the cartridge counter series. By then I already owned it.

This is what I found when I did a more thorough inspection of the gun:
The full serial number matches on the front of the frame and the barrel.
The last three digits of the serial number match on the receiver lug, breach-block, front and rear toggle members.
The witness mark on the barrel and frame are in perfect alignment; it does not appear the barrel has ever been changed.
The short frame looks identical to the frame on my other 1902 AE.
Rifling in the barrel is better than expected; I didn’t think there would be any signs of the lands and groves but they are there. It is not pristine but I have seen worse.
There is a two digit serial number match on the trigger.
The side-plate is un-numbered (Dwight pointed out that this side plate is from a Swiss gun as the bump for the lever arm runs all the way to the top of the side plate).
There is no number on the safety (this would be correct for a 1902 AE).
There is no number on the take-down lever; it appears to have been buffed off.
The grip safety has been removed, and the safety bar replace with a non grip safety variety (the safety will not engage due to the un-relived sear bar.
The spring for the grip safety is still in place.
The grips are aftermarket reproductions and are poorly fit.
The gun has been buffed and given a high gloss salt blue; all of the sharp edges have been rounded over.
There is a deep pit on the right side of the sight blade
The front of the barrel has been ground down even with the sight base.
The barrel was buffed but not turned down as the serial number is still evident.
There has been extensive engine turned “jewelling” done to the trigger, sear-bar, side-plate, frame, toggle, extractor, ejector, toggle Locke and the magazine release button.
The hold-open spring is broken.
The trigger arm in the side-plate is stuck and the gun will not fire with this side-plate installed (I did put in another side plate and the gun did function with it).
The serrations on the toggle knobs have been buffed almost smooth on the left side, not as bad on the right.
The chamber has been buffed extensively and the AE is almost gone there are some very deep pits on either side of the AE that couldn’t be buffed out. The pits on the left side of the AE are very deep.
There is a deep pit on the front of the trigger guard and some minor pitting on the sear-bar.
The end of the pin for the hold open is not flush with the frame surface, I assume this corroded because of the different metallurgy of the pin, but this could have been for some other reason.
The rest of the metal surfaces, although buffed do not have extensive pitting and are relatively clean.
Dwight suggested that I take off the left grip and see if the gun was relieved for the cartridge counter device and I did so and it is relived. It looks the same as the picture of the relieved frame in Jan Still’s Central Powers book (Pg 422). I compared it to my other 1902 AE and it is not the same.

I did check the data table of known cartridge counters Ron Wood supplied for Jan’s CP book, and this serial number is one of the 13 un-accounted for.

It was my understanding from the seller that the gun was refinished fairly recently (within the past couple of years). I wish I could have found it earlier and stopped the refinish, but then I probably couldn’t have afforded it.

My current position is that this is a lost cartridge counter and that it should be restored, as close as possible, to its original condition. I am in the process of contacting Gale Morgan to see if he will take on the restoration.

I would like to get comments from the group on any aspects of the gun, its originality, and my plans to have it restored. I have a thick skin so don’t be shy or worry about hurting my feelings; I am interested in hearing other opinions.

Thanks,
Bob Maddix

Note; I'll put some more pictures in another post to follow

[maddog350gt]

Here are some more pictures of the 1902 AE

Bob M.

[maddog350gt]

here are some more

Bob

[maddog350gt]

One more quick note; the last picture of the frame is from my other 1902 AE for comparison. You can easily see the difference in the milling of the frame to let the indicator travel higher up the grip.

Bob M.

[Vlim]

Bob,

You certainly know how to present a conversation piece

My first thoughts when I quickly browsed the photos was something in the line of 'that refinisher should get this stuck where the sun don't shine'. The side plate is a modern reproduction, btw.

The frame modification says enough, and I really appreciate your thoughts on having it restored to a better level (although improving on the current state shouldn't be too difficult ).

Let's hope we'll see this pistol returned to a shape that is much closer to it's original one.

[LugerVern]

Interesting gun!

The top of the receiver looks strange to me, not what I would expect on a 1902?

The gun has a mix of fonts on barrel frame and rear of the toggle ?

I like the lower frame much better than the upper and I might suggest that the original two half's might of been separated at some point in time.

Just thoughts for conversation, I have only seen one in person so I am by no means sure that there is any problems.

Vern

[Edward Tinker]

Bob, I like it, not the "improvements" but being what it is. Nice historical piece, shame its been abused.


Now, I gotta find something to trade you for it!



Ed

[lugerholsterrepair]

Bob, Quite a story! Congratulations on finding a CC pistol! The refinishing story belongs in the Luger collectors book of horror stories.
Do you think this pistol could be restored with any degree of success? It looks to me that so much metal has been removed that restoration at this point would be a miracle.
Keep us posted on the opinion of Gale Morgan!

Jerry Burney

[maddog350gt]

Thanks to all for the replies.

Vern; the high polish on the re-blue makes it hard to get good pictures of the fonts and see what's there. I think they are the same but the polish makes them look different. The 4 on the barrel has been polished down to where it looks like a 1, but if you get it in just the right light you can see its a 4. The top of the receiver is deeply pitted and the reflection around the pits distorts what you’re seeing. The polishing job wasn't quite even either.

Vlim; I was told the guy who did the “re-finish” owed the owner some money so he took a number of guns to him for similar treatment. His sons (or son-in-laws) didn’t know how many but said they all came back with a full treatment. I guess the debt was paid, but the owner paid it.

Jerry; I have seen Gale Morgan’s finished work, but not what he started with. I did have a Navy Luger restored by Bill Adair a few years ago and what came back from his shop was amazing compared to what went out. I was most impressed with how the gun was re-contoured to get it back to the correct outer form. I think he welded on the gun then re-cut it to get crisp new edges. The transformation was just exceptional. The Navy was in a similar state of buffing but didn't have the deep pits. I don't think the pits will be as big a problem as the general contour. I think this one can be saved. I expect it will cost a lot and take a long time (probably a year or two). I will keep you informed.

Ed; Keep looking through that stock, you might find something I would trade for but I can't think of what at this point.

Thanks,
Bob M.

[Ron Wood]

'Tis the stuff of dreams. That gun is as right as rain and deserves a full house restoration. Congratulations on finding one of the missing numbers. A Cartridge Counter has always been one of my fondest desires but one that I will never own.

[maddog350gt]

Ron Wood;

Thanks for the phone call and the tip about Gale Morgan's contact information. I wrote him an e-mail and sent 5 or 6 of the pictures to him. I received a response, he said he has restored worse (but not much worse), but before committing he would like to see the gun in person. I will write him back and tell him I'll ship it down sometime after Christmas. My wife insists I have it here when everyone comes for the holidays so they can laugh at the "pimp gun". Gale said that after he sees it he will be able to tell me how much effort it will take and give me a rough estimate of the money I'll need to put into it.

Thanks,
Bob M.

[EricW]

that jewelled/perlage finish is too much!

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=6...NE_TURNING_KIT

[Lugerdoc]

With the heavy polishing and remaining pits, I'd say that most restorers wouldn't be willing or able to tackel this job. Gale Morgan could probably do it, if he's up to a challenge at the moment and you have a few thousand dollars to spare. TH

[maddog350gt]

Update;

I finally got the CC down to Gale Morgan, I talked to him today. He agreed that this was an original Cartridge Counter gun and that he would like to do the restoration. The price he quoted was under 10K but not much. He told me that if I could come up with some of the parts the cost would go down, maybe by a significant amount depending on what I came up with. I didn’t get a time frame from him, but I plan to call him in a week or so and will check on it then. Gale told me he wouldn’t do the gun unless he did all of it, and it all had to be as correct as he could make it. If I wasn’t up that that then he would pass on the work. I am going to have the gun restored so I am now looking for original parts; I need a 1900/1902 side plate with the short lever arm. I also need a grip safety set up, and I am not sure which grip safety the CC guns had (Narrow or Wide); Ron or Dwight can you help me out here? I don’t think the takedown lever is correct, and I am not sure about the safety lever. Gale wasn’t sure the sear bar was correct either, but I think it is. He was notating that the gun wouldn’t fire and he thought it was the sear bar. I did have the gun functioning with another side plate so I think the sear bar is okay. If anyone can help with parts, let me know. I am willing to pay fair market value for anything you can provide me.

That’s all for now, I’ll add another note when I know more,
Bob M.

[Lugerdoc]

Bob, I can supply the correct original or new M1900 repro side plates, extractors & ejectors. I also have the correct wide orig grip safety & lever and most other M1900 parts. TH