Selling a 1902 Luger Carbine in the UK

06-10-2008, 12:17 PM

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ChannelIsles · 02-07-2009, 06:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tacfoley

Dear All - I recently received a PM from an anonymous gentleman in North America who wanted to know if he could sell a 1902 Luger carbine to a person in the UK.

Here is my response -

Dear Mr XXXXX - of course you can, but only to a Registered Firearms Dealer [RFD] who is also a Section 7 Dealer [rare].

You MAY sell it to a private individual in Northern Ireland, The Isle of Man, or the Channel Islands, where they are still allowed to own cartridge-firing handguns of all types, but again, it must go through HM Customs into the hands of a the Section 7 RFD to do the actual dealing.

It must also be subject to the usual ordeal of Proofing in the Birmingham Proof House, at your risk, prior to sale anywhere in the UK or the Isle of Man. On request, the Proof House will issue an accompanying certificate of proof rather than actually stamping the weapon all over - something that many feel takes a lot of value from an original arm.

What you may NOT do under any circumstances is to sell it to an individual person in this country who may or may not have an appropriate license - such licenses to own live-firing cartridge-loading weapons like this are VERY rare - in fact, I don't know anybody who has one here on mainland UK, only the one poster on the Lugerforums who lives in the Channel Islands, where they are allowed to have such weapons.

Add to that the duty taxes to be paid on the value of the item, with its 25% or more importation tax - plus the insurance and shipping - all added together and charged at 17.5% of the total, and it might be worth not bothering at all.

Example -

1 x Luger carbine 20,000.00
Shipping 250.00
Insurance 500.00

Assessed import tax 5,000.00 [minimum]

Sub-total 25,750.00

VAT @17.5% 4506.25

Total 30,265.25

Up to you.

If there is any more unwelcome advice I can give you, please don't hesitate to call me.

There is a lesson to be learnt here - IMO it's really not worth the trouble it costs.

tac

I am unsure if this post refers to the '02 carbine I just received from Florida and if I'm the Channel Island resident referred to, however, I'm pleased to advise, I am able to purchase (& hope to continue to do so) firearms.

Indeed, the carbine I purchased was for a lower sum. It took a little longer to come through, however, it didn't need to be UK proofed or incur VAT, only a smaller goods tax of 3.5% applied to the original price. Shipping fees are correct.

As Mr tac states, this outcome would be different if I lived elsewhere.

alvin · 02-07-2009, 08:47 AM

Not really relevant, but I have a question regarding the import/export. Some Inglis Browning on US market have Birmingham Proof Mark on the barrel, obviously have British origin. Also, some Inglis were recently imported from Canada (some were listed on Joe Salter's site in the past) ..... Isn't this pistol still in service in UK and Canada? How could service pistols be exported?

Or Inglis is not in service anymore?

stallturn · 02-09-2009, 08:08 AM

Dear Mr Foley,

You are a frequent poster on this forum, but sometimes you spout the most unmitigated poppycock. Your post on importing Section 7 firearms into the UK was almost totally misinformed.

I hold a Section 7(1) firearms certificate. I am permitted to hold pistols and revolvers at home under strict (but not onerous) conditions. I know tens of other collectors with similar certificates, and through them I know there are hundreds of similar collectors (not a huge number I know, but not as rare as you suggest).

I have imported many Section 7 pistols and revolvers from the US. It can be a very easy process. Post 1898 weapons need a US export licence, but that is the only hassle from the US side. Imports do need to come through a registered dealer (RFD), but again all that is required is finding one to do the paperwork.

You talk about VAT - most of it rubbish. VAT is levied at only 5% on items over 100 years old - ie Antiques. All you have to do is make the right statement on the documentation. Import duty at 25% - where on earth did you get that from? VAT is the only tax applied.

So your $20,000 carbine example, assuming the carriage & insurance numbers are correct, would only cost the buyer $21,787 - a bit of a difference from your calculation of over $30,000.

Visits to the proof house are not required, if the weapon is to be kept as part of a collection and not shot.

I would wish to reassure our US friends that selling weapons into the UK is not as difficult as some would have you believe.

Pontificating on areas in which you clearly have no knowledge is not helpful to such trade as does exist.

By the way, I am looking to add to my collection of cased Webley revolvers (also Tranters). If anyone out there knows of any for sale (minty examples only), please send me a PM. Thanks

raygun · 02-10-2009, 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stallturn

I have imported many Section 7 pistols and revolvers from the US. It can be a very easy process. .

I would wish to reassure our US friends that selling weapons into the UK is not as difficult as some would have you believe.

By the way, I am looking to add to my collection of cased Webley revolvers (also Tranters). If anyone out there knows of any for sale (minty examples only), please send me a PM. Thanks

Sir , I was under the impression that all cartridge firing handguns in the UK had to be deactivated ! You seem to be suggesting otherwise , please clarify ?

stallturn · 02-10-2009, 06:55 PM

Raygun,

You are misinformed.
Firearms law in the UK is indeed very tight, but does entitle bona-fide collectors and shooters to possess live guns.
All is revealed in the 1997 Firearms Act, particularly under its Section 7.
I hold a police issued (Home Office approved) Firearms certificate which enables me to hold certain live firearms at home under strict conditions. Those are:
- Made before 1919
- Of a calibre for which ammunition is considered not readily available
- Kept as part of an established collection

It is prohibited to fire these guns.

If you want more information, this link is useful:
http://police.homeoffice.gov.uk/publ...df?view=Binary
Go to Chapter 9 - Historic Handguns

raygun · 02-11-2009, 05:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stallturn

Raygun,

You are misinformed.
Firearms law in the UK is indeed very tight, but does entitle bona-fide collectors and shooters to possess live guns.
All is revealed in the 1997 Firearms Act, particularly under its Section 7.
I hold a police issued (Home Office approved) Firearms certificate which enables me to hold certain live firearms at home under strict conditions. Those are:
- Made before 1919
- Of a calibre for which ammunition is considered not readily available
- Kept as part of an established collection

It is prohibited to fire these guns.

If you want more information, this link is useful:
http://police.homeoffice.gov.uk/publ...df?view=Binary
Go to Chapter 9 - Historic Handguns

Thank you stallturn , I had a browse through the legislation and it seems both confusing , subjective and subject to the whims of the local police !

However it would appear, and please correct me if I'm wrong that it might be possible to keep a Luger and mauser C96 collection under section 7/3 , despite the fact they fire available ammunition if you can show they are part of a genuine collection of historically significant firearms !?

stallturn · 02-11-2009, 06:51 AM

You are absolutely right. The Police appear to have a lot of subjective latitude. Much depends on the individual force firearms team and the attitude of its individual members. It is best to keep on good terms with your Police firearms team.

You are also right about Lugers & C96s. I have Lugers and C96s in my collection at home, but only 7.65mm Lugers and 7.63 C96s. Ammunition for these is not considered 'readily available'.

If you desire to collect 9mm weapons, this is a 'readily available' calibre, and you can collect them under Section 7(3) of the act. However, you may not keep them at home. They must be kept at a 'designated site' - usually a firing range. Section 7(3) weapons may be fired at that designated site.

I see you are in Australia. I have imported a few firearms from there. Although things have tightened up with your authorities, it is again not an onerous process - just beaurocratic.

06-10-2008, 12:17 PM	#1
tacfoley Guest Posts: n/a	Selling a 1902 Luger Carbine in the UK .. Last edited by tacfoley; 02-09-2009 at 10:19 AM.

02-07-2009, 08:47 AM	#3
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Not really relevant, but I have a question regarding the import/export. Some Inglis Browning on US market have Birmingham Proof Mark on the barrel, obviously have British origin. Also, some Inglis were recently imported from Canada (some were listed on Joe Salter's site in the past) ..... Isn't this pistol still in service in UK and Canada? How could service pistols be exported? Or Inglis is not in service anymore?

02-09-2009, 08:08 AM	#4
stallturn User Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 25 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Dear Mr Foley, You are a frequent poster on this forum, but sometimes you spout the most unmitigated poppycock. Your post on importing Section 7 firearms into the UK was almost totally misinformed. I hold a Section 7(1) firearms certificate. I am permitted to hold pistols and revolvers at home under strict (but not onerous) conditions. I know tens of other collectors with similar certificates, and through them I know there are hundreds of similar collectors (not a huge number I know, but not as rare as you suggest). I have imported many Section 7 pistols and revolvers from the US. It can be a very easy process. Post 1898 weapons need a US export licence, but that is the only hassle from the US side. Imports do need to come through a registered dealer (RFD), but again all that is required is finding one to do the paperwork. You talk about VAT - most of it rubbish. VAT is levied at only 5% on items over 100 years old - ie Antiques. All you have to do is make the right statement on the documentation. Import duty at 25% - where on earth did you get that from? VAT is the only tax applied. So your $20,000 carbine example, assuming the carriage & insurance numbers are correct, would only cost the buyer $21,787 - a bit of a difference from your calculation of over $30,000. Visits to the proof house are not required, if the weapon is to be kept as part of a collection and not shot. I would wish to reassure our US friends that selling weapons into the UK is not as difficult as some would have you believe. Pontificating on areas in which you clearly have no knowledge is not helpful to such trade as does exist. By the way, I am looking to add to my collection of cased Webley revolvers (also Tranters). If anyone out there knows of any for sale (minty examples only), please send me a PM. Thanks

02-10-2009, 06:55 PM	#6
stallturn User Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 25 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Raygun, You are misinformed. Firearms law in the UK is indeed very tight, but does entitle bona-fide collectors and shooters to possess live guns. All is revealed in the 1997 Firearms Act, particularly under its Section 7. I hold a police issued (Home Office approved) Firearms certificate which enables me to hold certain live firearms at home under strict conditions. Those are: - Made before 1919 - Of a calibre for which ammunition is considered not readily available - Kept as part of an established collection It is prohibited to fire these guns. If you want more information, this link is useful: http://police.homeoffice.gov.uk/publ...df?view=Binary Go to Chapter 9 - Historic Handguns

02-11-2009, 06:51 AM	#8
stallturn User Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 25 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	You are absolutely right. The Police appear to have a lot of subjective latitude. Much depends on the individual force firearms team and the attitude of its individual members. It is best to keep on good terms with your Police firearms team. You are also right about Lugers & C96s. I have Lugers and C96s in my collection at home, but only 7.65mm Lugers and 7.63 C96s. Ammunition for these is not considered 'readily available'. If you desire to collect 9mm weapons, this is a 'readily available' calibre, and you can collect them under Section 7(3) of the act. However, you may not keep them at home. They must be kept at a 'designated site' - usually a firing range. Section 7(3) weapons may be fired at that designated site. I see you are in Australia. I have imported a few firearms from there. Although things have tightened up with your authorities, it is again not an onerous process - just beaurocratic.