I might be able to undo this if I overpaid, if I act soon

[jarcher]

Hi All...

I today bought my first Luger! I have been wanting one for years, but never made any moves toward getting one. Well, now I think I overpaid by quite a bit. Can someone let me know? I may be able to get out of the sale Monday, if I don't sit on it too ling.

I downloaded the Luger Identification Form for the technical section. Here is the data:

Toggle inscription: byf
Chamber inscription: 42
Toggle know type: round knobs with groves on the edge and checkering on the surface
Grip safety: not present
stock lug: present
cal: 9mm
Grip type: Wood, not sure what kind. Checkered and no border
Safety: Safe in rear position, word GESICHERT under lever, covered when in fire position
Markings:

- Right side of frame has proof markings that look like #46 (from this site). Of the three marks, the left two have the number 135 stamped under them, the right most does not have this.

- Right side of barrel has a very small mark that looks like an eagle with wings spread. There is something under it but I canâ??t make out what.

- Another mark that looks like an eagle is on the barrel half way down between the top and the left side. Itâ??s a different looking eagle. This is near the rear of the outside of the barrel.

- Additionally, on the barrel near the rear on the left side is something that could be another mark or maybe just a nick. Iâ??m not really sure.

- The left side of the extractor has a mark similar to that described above.

- Left side of frame is marked P.08

- Very front of frame has the serial number 2502 with a lower case script letter I below the number.

Barrel length is 4 inches

Magazine: There are two magazines, one in better condition then the other. Neither serial number matches the gun

Mag 1: Bottom appears to be aluminum. The number 34 is stamped in it. Below the number is a lower case script letter n. Below the n is a small eagle, below which there seem to be two letters I can not make out. This mag is very clean, with some finish worn off.

Mag 2: Same material base plug as the first, with the number 2149 and the lower case script letter a (I think). The same )or a very similar) symbol is below the letter. This mag is in worse shape with rust.

Bluing percentage remaining: I am very poor at estimating this. In general, this pistol has a lot of blue, except where the holster would wear it on high points and on the muzzle crown. The trigger plate has some wear on the bump. On the right hand side there is a raised bar that runs the length of the frame. The front of this bar has some wear. Above this bar is a shorter bar that is flush with the frame. The middle of this bar has the finish rubbed off. The grip back and front straps look good, as does the trigger.

Bore: The chamber and barrel look great inside. I was very surprised.

Grips: I canâ??t see any scratches or nicks or other chunks of wood missing. The checkering is in good shape. The grips seem dirty and could stand to be cleaned.

Serial numbers: The SN of this pistol is 2502 and it appears all the numbers match. The full SN is stamped on it in several places and the number 02 is all over the smaller parts. The SNs on the magazines however, are different, as discussed above.

Holster: This pistol came with a leather holster that I am told is original. Itâ??s black in some places but brown in others. Iâ??m not sure if itâ??s dirty, faded or worn, but it does not feel worn. Its smooth. There are several scratches where the flap closes. The strip of leather that buckles it closed is torn about half way through right where the flap ends. The number 1939 is stamped in the back. I am told this is a SN of a pistol that went into it. There is a hard to read name stamped above the number, and I am told this is the manufactures name. About an inch or so below the number some smaller letters and numbers are stamped in a semi-circular pattern. There is a spot to store the take-down tool, but no take-down tool.

I am told this pistol was brought back by a GI during WWII. I canâ??t prove it. There are no import stamps of any type on it, so it is plausible. It was part of a large collection, but the collector passed away. The collection is being sold for the estate by someone who has been selling guns for decades, and just collectibles for the past 10+ years. He is also an NRA official. I believe he is extremely honest, but he may also not be current on prices.

I would appreciate any comments and will happily answer any questions. Thanks very, very, very much!

Jim

[Edward Tinker]

Jim, how much did you pay?

Shooter prices are $400-$550 in my area if not higher, this would be for a mis-match, reblue or the like.

Here is a good site to get prices;

http://www.simpsonltd.com/LugerRoom/lugerrm.htm

and specifically the "Mauser" section;

http://www.simpsonltd.com/LugerRoom/...ser_lugers.htm

obviously, it matters very much on percent of blueing and if all original.

Ed

[jarcher]

Here are some pictures. I apologize for the mediocer photography.

[jarcher]

Here are some more...

[jarcher]

A few more...

[jarcher]

Last two.

By the way, these pictures were taken to demonstrate the flaws, not to show off the pistol. The pistol seems very nice, but since I am new at this, I don't know if it really is or if so how nice.

[jarcher]

Well, I didn't post what I paid because (1) I didn;t want to taint any opinions and (2) I didn't want to be embarassed.

Thanks for that link! I'm not sure I knew just what I was looking at though. I'll do some more reading and check it again.

[Bob in OH]

Well, this is a very civil and honest forum. Guys here really know there lugers and sharing the price paid won't taint their assessment. The gun has a normal range in value that is not related to what you paid. Second, we ALL have overpaid for stuff that is righteous or stuff we just had to have. Also, we ALL have made a mistake on a piece.

On ballpark value (and mind you I am just a luger neophyte), I would assess value of a byf42 at 750-1000 for the gun IF it is all matching with 90+ original blue and no reworking.

Luger holsters generally are 150+ and extra mags are 60+. Your pics looked pretty good for the gun's finish until I saw the pic showing the finish above the left grip...looks rather odd there. The grips themselves look pretty clean to me. Have you taken them off to look inside for numbers or inspector waffenamt?

Everyone has a comfort zone for price and we are all individuals in our interests. I also believe hardcore collectors, who are very descriminating, actually pay less for stuff than less knowledgable guys who "really want a ______".

I do think there is merit in you sharing what was paid. The collector community can better comment on your purchase by reflecting their expertise off the price you paid...

[tudorbug]

Archer, for comparison, I have been offered a byf 42 in seemingly (I'm not an expert) new condition with a single black plastic bottomed fxo magazine and no holster or loading tool. I can't believe that a WWII era pistol could look so nice, particularly when the bore shows some signs of wear (and I am not an expert in bores of gun barrels either).

Asking price was $1750. Whew!

On the right side of the receiver, that mark under the right most eagle is the Nazi swastika inside a circle. The marks under the eagles on the barrel should also be swastika's, if my aged memory is not failing me.

Inside the grips, I am told, there will not be numbers matching the last two digits of your pistol serial number.

In this year of manufacture, I also am under the impression that there will not be a barrel gauge number stamped, right in front of the receiver on the underside of the barrel. Earlier pistols have this and one might read 8.83, 8.84, 8.82 or etc.

The holster number that you noted is probably the year of its manufacture, 1939, which does not agree with the year of manufacture of the pistol. Nevertheless, if there is a chance that the holster came back with this pistol from World War II, I would be included to keep the two togther with the two mismatched magazines.

Holsters in top condition will bring $250 to $350 on eBay. I recently bought a very nice one dated 1936 for $305 on eBay. There is a gentleman on this forum who does superior holster repair who might be able to repair the torn strap on yours.

If you want to match the pistol up with correct magazines, then correct fxo black plastic bottomed magazine are on parade on eBay. Look very carefully for one that also has the 135 stamp on its side, which matches the WaA stamps on your right side of the receiver of you pistol.

Some of the cost of replacing magazines can be recouped by selling the two that came with your pistol which are correct for one made earlier.

As Bob noted, there is a mark that could be a retouch of the metal just to the left and below the level on the "PO8" stamp on the left side above the grip. It could also be a finger print that has been rubbed. Or, it could also be a ........yada, yada, yada, ....... and there is no end of comments to make on some one else's pistol, I find.

Finally, Ed's helpful links to the Simpson site will show pictures of lugers, less detailed than yours, that are expensive. Nevertheless, these pistols are listed by a major dealer in these weapons, a firm that makes a living selling them so they ought to be considered as an authority in their value. When I view that site, I find myself thinking, "Gosh, I hope I don't have to pay that much." :-)) In the end, I probably will.

This looks like a really nice pistol and I would be happy to own it myself. I offer my congratulations on your purchase, if you keep it. I wish I could find one that suits my needs as well.

Others may find errors in my information and their corrections and amendments to my thoughts would be most welcome.

David

[jarcher]

Thanks to everyone who responded. I'll have a closer look at the mark that might be a retouch and see if I can get a better pic of it.

I paid $1,650.00 for the entire rig. I didn't mean to offend anyone by not posting the price. If I did I apologize.

When I look at the pictures on that other site, some of the byf 42s seem comperable or slightly better than mine, but its hard to tell. They seem to have the same wear in the same places, i.e. mostly the raised parts prone to holster wear. But there are several different models, and I have not yet figured out what this one is, other than a byf 42, which I think was made in 1942.

[Frank]

Hi Jim, Welcome to the Luger Forum!! Your Luger was completed in about August 1942. The holster is probably made in 1939, as David suggested.

The real question would be do all the internal parts that are numbered match the "02" on the pistol. I can see from one of the photos the main toggle pin is properly numbered, but what about the trigger, hold open lever, breech block, firing pin and grips? The grips should either be numbered to the pistol or have an eagle/135 stamped in the inside. If the number isn't present, you may have to use some magnification to see the E/135 which is called a Waffenamt Mark or inspection mark.

The 34n magazine is for a 1936 Luger and the 2149q is for a 1939 Luger. While not "proper" for your 1942, they are still valuable and worth about $85 each.

The holster doesn't look too bad, but I really can't tell from the photos. Once Jerry Burney starts working again he can easily repair it for you. Notice, I said he could, not many, if any have his skills!! But say the holster is worth $100 (probably low).

So you paid $1465, or so for the pistol. It is difficult to estimate the percent of original finish from your photos. It certainly has wear marks on the usual spots.

If the pistol is all matching, except the magazine, then I think you paid a bit too much for the rig. For reference, Simpson LTD has a 98% byf 42 advertised for $1600. The value drops off rather rapidly with a reduction in percent original finish!!

BTW, byf 42 Lugers didn't have matching magazines!! The black plastic bottom fxo magazines marked with an E/37 on the side and no markings on the bottom are proper.

Hope this helps!! Good Luck either way you go!!

[jarcher]

Hi Frank, that's a huge help, thanks! I'm not worried about paying $50 or so too much. I was worried I paid $300 to $600 or more too much!

Before I took the pistol, the seller and I field stripped it and examined all the parts carefully. I did check the chamber and barrel and they look great. I also checked all numbers I could find and they appeared to match.

We did not remove the grips. I'm kind of nervous about doing that. It seems every time I try to remove a tight screw I do damage to it. I can see though that this is an important thing to check.

I photographed and posted the pics of every spot on the pistol that appeared to have any wear. Is there a way to measure the percentage that is worn?

I also read in another thread that lugars that were dip blued should have distinct lines somewhere, but I can't find them. If I understood correctly, lugars without strawing were dip blued, so should my pistol have these lines? If so, where?

Bob and David, can you please tell me what to look for regarding that potential retouch mark? I'll clean that area and post some more pictures of just that.

What does everyone think of the grips? Are those dark areas just dirt that can be cleaned off, or is there a problem there?

Regarding the holster, if I do have it repaired, does that diminish its value as a collectable? Does it enhance it?

I'm sorry for all these newbe questions, but I sure do appreciate the help! Every time I make a big purchase I panic over it, and you guys are really helping to alleviate my panic now, thanks!

Jim

[Edward Tinker]

Jim, I think most people would agree. If you like it and you think the price was close to fair, then you got a winner!

Give it 10 years and the price will seem really fair!

Ed

[jarcher]

Hi Ed and all...

I do like it, and if the general consensus here is that I overpaid by only $50 to $100 or so, then I am quite happy. If I overpaid by more than I can remedy that by Monday, so I do appreciate the help!

Here are the pictures of the left side. I find it very hard to photograph this without getting glare from the lights, so I tried a few different things.

Before I photographed it, I just rubbed it with a soft cloth. I didn't use any cleaners because I don't know if it's safe to attack it with my MPro7 ;-)

Is there anything here that indicates the gun was retouched?

Thanks again...

Jim

[Frank]

Jim, I'm not sure what you mean about the distinct lines. From your photos, it appears the finishing marks are proper. That is the left side finishing grain is horizontal, ie, front to back, while the trigger plate finishing grain is vertical, up and down. A refinished pistol often has been over polished and the grain is not present or at least blurred. Your Luger looks proper.

It is very difficult to see some of the finish on the Luger because the photos are very dark. I can use software to lighten the photo, but then I loose definition on color. So I really can't judge percent of original finish.

I don't blame you for being careful about removing the grips. First one should have the correct screw driver. Then remove the right side grip and examine it. The right side grip is stronger than the left since it isn't cut away for the safety lever and magazine release button , in a thin section. Remove the magazine and view the left side grip through the frame. If the grips are numbered, you can usually see both grips numbers in this fashion. If they are just marked with the Waffenamt Mark, then you have to trust the examination of the right side.

Now for the holster. If Jerry does the repair on the closing strap, chances are excellent you won't be able to tell it has been repaired. It should enhance the value of the holster, if the rest of it is in good condition!!

Now for value. In all probability, you have a correct pistol. By that I mean all matching (with the exception of the grips because you don't know). You can sell the two magazines and buy a black plastic bottom fxo magazine for the money you get form the two you and maybe have a few bucks left over. The pistol doesn't appear to be the 99% finish type. If it's above 95%, you have over paid by roughly less than $200. If it's only 90%, then I would recommend you take it back. If you are in that middle fence sitting posture, it's your call!!

Good Luck!!

[tudorbug]

Jim: You can see the stain on the left side of the receiver in the seventh photo from the top in your post timed at 1:48.

I see significantly less clear indications of the stain in your last two photos of your post timed at 23:38. It is an apparent different coloration of the bluing and it may be no more than a fingerprint that was smeared or a reflection. If it was there, you would be able to see it far more clearly that we can using photos and I think you would wonder over it.

On grip numbers, I thought that grips were not numbered in 1942, but Frank, a far greater authority than I, thinks they should be. I would consider a very gentle effort with a cushioned screwdriver to see if that right grip screw will turn and give you a look at the back of the wood. Underscore "very gentle."

I need to acknowlege Frank's earlier correction of the E/37 rather than 135 stamp on the side of an fxo magazine. I was thinking barrel stamp and apologize for that error, gladly.

If you keep the gun, and it really looks nice, you can also purchase a 135 stamped loading tool for it. Simpson has them but they are admittedly expensive at $125. They would be a nice addition. When I had a byf 41, I obtained a 655 stamped loading tool and that was the same WaA number that was stamped on the receiver.

Remember that these pistols are on the order of 60 years old and are most likely to show some sign of their age.

I also report that I have turned down the byf 42 that I considered, but only after considerable agonizing and shaking my head over my checkbook balance, and I know that you know what I mean.

But, it's fun to keep looking.

David

[jarcher]

Hi All

Iâ??ve decided this one is a keeper! I may have overpaid a bit, but if I did not by more than I can live with. The numbers all match down to the firing pin, except that I have not checked the grips yet. There is no reason to believe that they wonâ??t match as well. Iâ??m very happy with this!

Over the next months Iâ??ll look at getting the correct magazines, getting the holster repaired and getting a loading tool that matches. The grips could stand a cleaning as well. Iâ??ll also be getting some books and doing more reading here.

Last night, I took it apart, cleaned every nook and cranny, lubed it up and managed to get it back together.

I wish to thank everyone here for their terrific help! Everyone has been great, and I really appreciate it! I hope someday I can return the favors!

Cheers!

Jim

[tudorbug]

Jim, congratulations! A nice pistol finds a caring home and I underscore "caring."

I hope I can find one as well. :-))

[G.W. Gill]

Jarcher; Is the spring on the right side (with the worn spot in the middle) plum colored? Are the wear marks worn in the direction of in and out of the holster? Those lines on the grip straps are not always there. I have observed them on quite a few.

[jarcher]

I think plum color might be a fair description of that spring, although a brownish color or slightly bluish-brown would also be fair.

As near as I can tell, all the wear marks seem link normal holster wear. They seem to have been created by up-down motion in and out of the holster.

Why do you ask?