A good example of what to watch out for

Zamo · 12-20-2008, 12:50 AM

Here is a 1936 S/42 that seems to have it all. But while I am no expert, just about everything that could be wrong seems to be wrong, so I thought I'd post it here in an attempt to help new collectors avoid some of the worst pitfalls in Luger collecting.

Here is the original auction:
Gunbroker all matching 1936 S/42 w/ 2 matching magazines

Great, just happens to be exactly what I'm looking for, and with a matching set of magazines and holster...this could be my lucky day!

Here is the text the seller has submited:
"1936 Mauser in excellent condition. 9mm with both numbers matching magazines. Absolutely beautiful dated (1936) number matching holster with tool included. Beautiful grips that have very sharp checkering and no cracks. Gun has no boogered screws. All numbers matching. Bore is very good. At first I thought this gun may have been refinished, but after looking at markings especially on toggle & reading that Mauser actually did a lot of reworking, I am questioning that thought. Action seems excellent. I have not taken this gun apart (as I don't know how, and I am not going to try). What you see is what you get so if you have any questions or concerns call Rich at 989-640-1449, before you bid. Again, I think this is a real beauty with both numbered magazines (1 & 2). Also a absolutely beautiful Leather Holster (that is also numbered to gun). You look at the pictures and you be the judge. Thanks for looking at our auctions, and have a Merry Christmas."

OK, ignoring the friendly Merry Christmas for just now, let's just see what we're really looking at here.
First picture shows a nice enough Luger from the left side.

Looks pretty good. Here's the right side.

Again, the finish is very nice, no rust visible, no dings...Ready to buy?
A beginning collector who hasn't read much or talked to a more seasoned expert would be getting pretty excited by now. The finish looks great, and so do the grips.
Ah! But a more seasoned eye can already tell it's time to run far away. Or at least doubt the veracity of the sellers story, and relagated this poor pistol to the status of being "a shooter" by what's shown in the photos. Can you see what they might be?
Let's take a look at a few more angles. First the top:

See anything wrong? The last two digits of the serial number have been stricken out, and two other numbers, which match the rest of the pistol have been stamped just behind the S/42 stamping. Game over. If you didn't catch the fact that the strawed parts were blued in the first two pictures above, this one here should be a dead give away. All matching indeed. And while I'm not sure, I don't think a 1936 should be stamped "P08" on the side either. Hmmm.
Here is a picture of the rear of the pistol. There are at least two things questionable here, possibly three:

First, most Lugers I have examined show a little bare metal where the toggle cams back onto the frame, just above the lanyard loop. It is not visible here. Secondly, it is very rare for a +65 year old pistol to have absolutly NO wear on the grip strap. Most show a healthy patina in this area. Another red flag unfurls. A third possible problem is the serial number stamps, I can't place it, but these just don't look "right" to me. Perhaps they are too big, perhaps they are too shallow, but they don't seem right. It may be that I am being tainted by the bad taste the force stamped serial numbers on the front of the toggle, which is actually more than enough.
But let's continue. This auction is just getting better and better!
Remember what I said about wear on the grip strap?

I don't see any either. There may be pistols with little or no grip strap wear, but they are few and far between, and not starting for 0.01Ã?Â¢ with no reserve on Gunbroker. See the other problem in this picture?

Exactly! You're catching on fast! I'm going to let the markings on the barrel slide for now (but it sure looks like a "Crown N", which shouldn't be there on an S/42, and where the heck are the barrel's serial number stampings?), however, that big "X" stamped at the apex of the trigger guard, below the cursive "k" indicated this pistol spent some time in the USSR...without the Wehrmacht.
The Soviets captured millions of German firearms during the "Great Patriotic War", and never wasted any resource that could possibly help drive foreign invaders from the steppes of Mother Russia. All captured weapons were eventually sent to an arsenal to be repaired, refinished, and re-used. This "X" explains all of the other problems we've seen on this pistol in one shot. These pistols were all re-finished by being dipped in a tank of hot bluing solution after the were repaired, and re-stamped. Numbers were frequently re-stamped after replacement, and the pistols were then re-issued, or put in a warehouse somewhere to eventually be sold to greedy Capitalists for a HUGE profit.
But our lesson isn't over yet. Take a look at this picture of the right side:

See all those great proof marks? There's too many! There should be three. I suspect the first marking to the extreme left is the name of the company that initially imported the pistol, but the photo isn't clear enough to be sure. Here you can also see the blued take-down lever, and trigger, which should be a golden straw color on a 1936 S/42. Bluing came halfway through 1937.
As the guy on T.V. says, "WAIT THERE'S MORE!". Here is the holster in the auction:

Doesn't look too bad, for a WW2 piece of leather, does it?
...Because it's NOT! Take a look at these classy markings on the rear:

If these are authentic 1936 stampings, I'll eat it!
They didn't even have this shoddy of stampings at the end of the war when the Russians were marching through the Brandenburg gate! Bogus stampings on a post war reproductioin holster.
Getting tired of reading? Me too. But still...STILL there are more surprises ahead. Remember those two matching magazines? I've known people to still pay a good penny more for a pair of matching magazines on an otherwise "shooter" grade Luger. Maybe we can still find something of value here:

Nope. Not with these. Note the rivet in the finger grooves on the aluminum bottom piece. Not 1936 German, and I don't even have a clue what that marking is, other than it is NOT any period correct marking I've ever seen. Post-war aftermarket magazines, both.
"But wait!" your saying, "they had matched serial numbers to the pistol..."
Right. Let's take a look at that too, shall we?

By golly, they DO match! Except that to be correct they should also have some eagles and other Third Reich markings, and a "+" for the extra magazine, and both are missing the much harder to reproduce cursive "k" which should be with either real magazine. Again...bogus.
I don't wish to impune the integrity of the seller. There is no evidence he even has a clue what he's trying to sell. However, somebody sometime decided to cheat, and doctored up this Luger pretty heavily. It is a prime example of the kind of crap fledgling collectors have to learn to identify and avoid. This pistols value is nothing more than a well equipped shooter. However, with all the dishonest forced matching and other dubious attempts to boost it's value, I personally wouldn't even think of buying it for half it's current price. I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole lest someone down the road associate my name with these piratical markings.
I hope you new collectors found this post useful. Due to time and space constraints, I've glossed over quite a bit. Buy books. Read them. THEN spend your hard earned cash. You won't get suckered.
I'm going to bed now.

adowns · 12-20-2008, 06:32 AM

nice post.

moosehead4355 · 12-20-2008, 09:25 AM

Thanks for taking the time to share some knowledge. Very helpful post for us new collectors.

Ron Smith · 12-20-2008, 10:08 AM

Note also the Mauser "Hump" introduced in mid-1937.

George Anderson · 12-20-2008, 10:24 AM

Actually it's a perfectly correct VOPO Luger with correct VOPO mags teamed up with a phony holster.

lugerholsterrepair · 12-20-2008, 05:41 PM

A pair of repro grips tops it all off. Some people collect this type of VOPO and it has some value to them. While I am not a purest I find these are not as interesting as an unmolested pistol.
The seller seems challenged..seems not to know anything about it and refuses to learn how to take it apart.
Zamo presents a good breakdown....The pistol has a story to tell....They all do and that's the fun of it!

OH! I almost forgot the holster...It's got a story to tell too but it' probably speaks Pakistani.

Jerry Burney

Went Blakely · 12-21-2008, 11:46 AM

Hahaha nice one Jerry

Vlim · 12-21-2008, 07:08 PM

This is indeed a run-of-the-mill VoPo luger which has been deprived of it's original (plastic) VoPo grips and had a piece of Pakistani goat butt added, together with aftermarket grips.

The Crown/N proofed barrel with the roughly finished muzzle crown is everything you'd expect from a DDR barrel, as are the magazines, X-ing out mismatching small parts numbers and a thorough reblue.

So ditch the repro grips and the goat, get yourself a nice pair of VoPo grips and a VoPo holster and it's a nice representative of the 1950s cold war era.

rolandtg · 12-21-2008, 08:04 PM

A brilliant and merciless analysis!

The 1936 looks engraved.

This thread should be a sticky.
"Lugers for noobs"

alvin · 12-21-2008, 08:33 PM

Mauser VOPO is less interesting than DWM or Erfurt VOPO. There was one presented in ebook going all the way from Imperial -> Weimar -> Nazi -> DDR.... covering the complete German history of 20th century. It's collectible IMO. They are still reasonably priced in today's market (I'm not the seller).

jonnyc · 12-21-2008, 08:38 PM

Never thought about that, interesting lineage. That would be a variation well-worth looking for.

Zamo · 12-21-2008, 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rolandtg

The 1936 looks engraved.

I wonder if it was. Note the P08 on the side. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that came much later, didn't it?
And when coupled with the ersatz holster, mags, and wooden repro grips, I think of it as less a collectable VoPo, than a really poor job of passing it off for something it is not.
I totally didn't even consider it might be a VoPo pistol when I initially analyzed it. While I acknowledge their usage is an important chapter in the overall Luger story, it's not an area I'm interested in...yet.
The same can be said for post-WW1 double stamps...yet!

Isn't that how it always goes? Collect the obvious ones first, then get into the more and more esoteric?

alvin · 12-21-2008, 11:09 PM

Obviously, I am not Luger guru either. But I would say collect original guns first. Reworks are complex, lots of men did lots of things, and to tell who did what is usually not an easy task. Today, VOPO's price range does not attract "professional" work, it's relatively safe to assume it being government contractor's job. If the price soars one day, .... then God knows. Lots of things can be covered under the "reworked" umbrella..... I assume that will also prevent it from soaring very high though.

12-20-2008, 12:50 AM	#1
Zamo User Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Washington State Posts: 142 Thanks: 4 Thanked 13 Times in 9 Posts	A good example of what to watch out for Here is a 1936 S/42 that seems to have it all. But while I am no expert, just about everything that could be wrong seems to be wrong, so I thought I'd post it here in an attempt to help new collectors avoid some of the worst pitfalls in Luger collecting. Here is the original auction: Gunbroker all matching 1936 S/42 w/ 2 matching magazines Great, just happens to be exactly what I'm looking for, and with a matching set of magazines and holster...this could be my lucky day! Here is the text the seller has submited: "1936 Mauser in excellent condition. 9mm with both numbers matching magazines. Absolutely beautiful dated (1936) number matching holster with tool included. Beautiful grips that have very sharp checkering and no cracks. Gun has no boogered screws. All numbers matching. Bore is very good. At first I thought this gun may have been refinished, but after looking at markings especially on toggle & reading that Mauser actually did a lot of reworking, I am questioning that thought. Action seems excellent. I have not taken this gun apart (as I don't know how, and I am not going to try). What you see is what you get so if you have any questions or concerns call Rich at 989-640-1449, before you bid. Again, I think this is a real beauty with both numbered magazines (1 & 2). Also a absolutely beautiful Leather Holster (that is also numbered to gun). You look at the pictures and you be the judge. Thanks for looking at our auctions, and have a Merry Christmas." OK, ignoring the friendly Merry Christmas for just now, let's just see what we're really looking at here. First picture shows a nice enough Luger from the left side. Looks pretty good. Here's the right side. Again, the finish is very nice, no rust visible, no dings...Ready to buy? A beginning collector who hasn't read much or talked to a more seasoned expert would be getting pretty excited by now. The finish looks great, and so do the grips. Ah! But a more seasoned eye can already tell it's time to run far away. Or at least doubt the veracity of the sellers story, and relagated this poor pistol to the status of being "a shooter" by what's shown in the photos. Can you see what they might be? Let's take a look at a few more angles. First the top: See anything wrong? The last two digits of the serial number have been stricken out, and two other numbers, which match the rest of the pistol have been stamped just behind the S/42 stamping. Game over. If you didn't catch the fact that the strawed parts were blued in the first two pictures above, this one here should be a dead give away. All matching indeed. And while I'm not sure, I don't think a 1936 should be stamped "P08" on the side either. Hmmm. Here is a picture of the rear of the pistol. There are at least two things questionable here, possibly three: First, most Lugers I have examined show a little bare metal where the toggle cams back onto the frame, just above the lanyard loop. It is not visible here. Secondly, it is very rare for a +65 year old pistol to have absolutly NO wear on the grip strap. Most show a healthy patina in this area. Another red flag unfurls. A third possible problem is the serial number stamps, I can't place it, but these just don't look "right" to me. Perhaps they are too big, perhaps they are too shallow, but they don't seem right. It may be that I am being tainted by the bad taste the force stamped serial numbers on the front of the toggle, which is actually more than enough. But let's continue. This auction is just getting better and better! Remember what I said about wear on the grip strap? I don't see any either. There may be pistols with little or no grip strap wear, but they are few and far between, and not starting for 0.01Ã?Â¢ with no reserve on Gunbroker. See the other problem in this picture? Exactly! You're catching on fast! I'm going to let the markings on the barrel slide for now (but it sure looks like a "Crown N", which shouldn't be there on an S/42, and where the heck are the barrel's serial number stampings?), however, that big "X" stamped at the apex of the trigger guard, below the cursive "k" indicated this pistol spent some time in the USSR...without the Wehrmacht. The Soviets captured millions of German firearms during the "Great Patriotic War", and never wasted any resource that could possibly help drive foreign invaders from the steppes of Mother Russia. All captured weapons were eventually sent to an arsenal to be repaired, refinished, and re-used. This "X" explains all of the other problems we've seen on this pistol in one shot. These pistols were all re-finished by being dipped in a tank of hot bluing solution after the were repaired, and re-stamped. Numbers were frequently re-stamped after replacement, and the pistols were then re-issued, or put in a warehouse somewhere to eventually be sold to greedy Capitalists for a HUGE profit. But our lesson isn't over yet. Take a look at this picture of the right side: See all those great proof marks? There's too many! There should be three. I suspect the first marking to the extreme left is the name of the company that initially imported the pistol, but the photo isn't clear enough to be sure. Here you can also see the blued take-down lever, and trigger, which should be a golden straw color on a 1936 S/42. Bluing came halfway through 1937. As the guy on T.V. says, "WAIT THERE'S MORE!". Here is the holster in the auction: Doesn't look too bad, for a WW2 piece of leather, does it? ...Because it's NOT! Take a look at these classy markings on the rear: If these are authentic 1936 stampings, I'll eat it! They didn't even have this shoddy of stampings at the end of the war when the Russians were marching through the Brandenburg gate! Bogus stampings on a post war reproductioin holster. Getting tired of reading? Me too. But still...STILL there are more surprises ahead. Remember those two matching magazines? I've known people to still pay a good penny more for a pair of matching magazines on an otherwise "shooter" grade Luger. Maybe we can still find something of value here: Nope. Not with these. Note the rivet in the finger grooves on the aluminum bottom piece. Not 1936 German, and I don't even have a clue what that marking is, other than it is NOT any period correct marking I've ever seen. Post-war aftermarket magazines, both. "But wait!" your saying, "they had matched serial numbers to the pistol..." Right. Let's take a look at that too, shall we? By golly, they DO match! Except that to be correct they should also have some eagles and other Third Reich markings, and a "+" for the extra magazine, and both are missing the much harder to reproduce cursive "k" which should be with either real magazine. Again...bogus. I don't wish to impune the integrity of the seller. There is no evidence he even has a clue what he's trying to sell. However, somebody sometime decided to cheat, and doctored up this Luger pretty heavily. It is a prime example of the kind of crap fledgling collectors have to learn to identify and avoid. This pistols value is nothing more than a well equipped shooter. However, with all the dishonest forced matching and other dubious attempts to boost it's value, I personally wouldn't even think of buying it for half it's current price. I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole lest someone down the road associate my name with these piratical markings. I hope you new collectors found this post useful. Due to time and space constraints, I've glossed over quite a bit. Buy books. Read them. THEN spend your hard earned cash. You won't get suckered. I'm going to bed now. __________________ <INSERT WITTY SAYING HERE> My collection: http://home.comcast.net/~gunspotz/guns.htm Last edited by Zamo; 12-20-2008 at 01:15 AM. Reason: with this much text, you think I'd get it right the 1st time?

12-20-2008, 10:08 AM	#4
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Note also the Mauser "Hump" introduced in mid-1937. Attached Thumbnails __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

12-20-2008, 05:41 PM	#6
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,763 Thanks: 4,865 Thanked 3,104 Times in 1,429 Posts	A pair of repro grips tops it all off. Some people collect this type of VOPO and it has some value to them. While I am not a purest I find these are not as interesting as an unmolested pistol. The seller seems challenged..seems not to know anything about it and refuses to learn how to take it apart. Zamo presents a good breakdown....The pistol has a story to tell....They all do and that's the fun of it! OH! I almost forgot the holster...It's got a story to tell too but it' probably speaks Pakistani. Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

12-21-2008, 11:46 AM	#7
Went Blakely User Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Australia Posts: 231 Thanks: 4 Thanked 8 Times in 6 Posts	Hahaha nice one Jerry __________________ Went Blakely

12-20-2008, 06:32 AM	#2
adowns User Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Alabama Posts: 15 Thanks: 21 Thanked 18 Times in 7 Posts	nice post.

12-20-2008, 09:25 AM	#3
moosehead4355 User Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Illinois Posts: 6 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks for taking the time to share some knowledge. Very helpful post for us new collectors.

12-20-2008, 10:24 AM	#5
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,527 Times in 786 Posts	Actually it's a perfectly correct VOPO Luger with correct VOPO mags teamed up with a phony holster.

12-21-2008, 07:08 PM	#8
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,045 Thanks: 1,034 Thanked 3,938 Times in 1,196 Posts	This is indeed a run-of-the-mill VoPo luger which has been deprived of it's original (plastic) VoPo grips and had a piece of Pakistani goat butt added, together with aftermarket grips. The Crown/N proofed barrel with the roughly finished muzzle crown is everything you'd expect from a DDR barrel, as are the magazines, X-ing out mismatching small parts numbers and a thorough reblue. So ditch the repro grips and the goat, get yourself a nice pair of VoPo grips and a VoPo holster and it's a nice representative of the 1950s cold war era.

12-21-2008, 08:04 PM	#9
rolandtg User Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Texas Hill Country Posts: 471 Thanks: 363 Thanked 255 Times in 111 Posts	A brilliant and merciless analysis! The 1936 looks engraved. This thread should be a sticky. "Lugers for noobs"

12-21-2008, 08:33 PM	#10
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Mauser VOPO is less interesting than DWM or Erfurt VOPO. There was one presented in ebook going all the way from Imperial -> Weimar -> Nazi -> DDR.... covering the complete German history of 20th century. It's collectible IMO. They are still reasonably priced in today's market (I'm not the seller).

12-21-2008, 08:38 PM	#11
jonnyc User Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 425 Thanks: 2 Thanked 46 Times in 34 Posts	Never thought about that, interesting lineage. That would be a variation well-worth looking for.

12-21-2008, 11:09 PM	#13
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Obviously, I am not Luger guru either. But I would say collect original guns first. Reworks are complex, lots of men did lots of things, and to tell who did what is usually not an easy task. Today, VOPO's price range does not attract "professional" work, it's relatively safe to assume it being government contractor's job. If the price soars one day, .... then God knows. Lots of things can be covered under the "reworked" umbrella..... I assume that will also prevent it from soaring very high though.