My first P08

paolo.orange · 07-01-2007, 05:03 PM

Ciao everybody,
I'm Paolo from Italy and I bought this Mauser yesterday.

Rumours here in Italy say that it should be from the '70, reworked by Mauser, but the blueing looks like it was made few days ago. I can tell you that I spent half night removing the preservative grease on the mechanic and the complete absence of wear on the rails shows that it was never fired.
Below the trigger plate I found some marking. I've identified the first as a proof of test with smokeless ammo, the second is the logo of the testing facility in Koln-Germany, the third is "KI" that I suspect is the year of the test, but I'm not sure, the forth and last is a kind of "F" on top or 2 "W".

I really appreciate if somebody could educated me about my new p08.

Edward Tinker · 07-01-2007, 05:25 PM

Paolo, we need more information. One picture helps, but is not enough. Either need a bunch more pictures or we need serial number, suffix, proofs on the right, etc.

Welcome to the forum!

ed

mauro · 07-01-2007, 05:36 PM

Ciao Paolo,
Happy to have another Italian here!!
You are right, in the real last period of the Mauser Parabellum production, Mauser refurbished some WWII P08 and offer them on several European markets.
At that epoch, Bignami imported some of them in Italy.
What it is good of this pistol is that they are made in 9x21 by Mauser and not after the importation in Italy.
To have more info you can have a look at my web and click on Ã¢??Mauser Parabellum AreaÃ¢?Â. I have an advertising of Mauser about your pistol.

http://www.lugerlp08.com

Please do you mind to post some more pics.

Grazie e ciao
Mauro

DaveinTN · 07-01-2007, 05:36 PM

Paolo,

I'm fairly new to the forum myself and have so far "collected" two Lugers. Neither is as nice as yours.

One of my other hobbies is digital photography. Apparently you used a light booth to photograph your pistol. What type camera and photo/graphics software did you use to take and process your photo?

Welcome to the forum and be sure to post some more pictures!

Dave in TN.

mauro · 07-01-2007, 05:41 PM

Paolo,
In addition you can have a look at this topic that I open few months ago about a P08 like yours.

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...ghlight=mauser

Ciao
Mauro

Lugerdoc · 07-02-2007, 08:37 AM

Paolo, From the angle of the camera, I can't read the chamber date and toggle code clearly. Beautiful restoration of a WW2 Mauser PO8. Is Mauro correct that it is not chambered for 9mmP? Rather 9mm Largo or Steyr? That would expain an odd chambered barrel that I thought was in .38 Super. Has the mag area been enlarged to allow a larger magazine to feel these longer cartridges? Mille Gradcia in advance, Tom

Steinar · 07-02-2007, 12:06 PM

Posted three months to late?

paolo.orange · 07-02-2007, 01:45 PM

Thanks Mauro,
I was pretty sure to eventually see Bignami's fingerprint on that (Bignami is probably the largest distributor of firearms here in Italy) and yes, my assumption is that it was made by Mauser for the Italian marker since the barrel shows a clean "9x21IMI Cat. 10717" that is miles away from the often brutal markings made by the Test Bench in Gardone. So it looks like it was born as a 9x21.
These are the markings covered by the side plate.

What do you mean about refurbishing? The chamber date is 1938. Does it make sense? I wonder if it's like the MILSTD Colt Government of current production that are built to look like the original M1911A1 but they are not.

DaveinTN,
I took a picture of that on a clear green piece of paper, 2 or 3 stops over exposed. You can use any different color as a background, but it works better with clear, brilliant colors. I then used ADOBE Photoshop to remove the green background and replace that with 100% white. The idea is to have the P08 looking like it's floating in the vacuum so the viewer can concentrate on the subject and its details. I then added my avatar...usually it's Tahoma but given the subject I thought London Gothic made sense. The shade of the avatar shall look like the shade the gun make and it's shape should suggest it's printed on the ground.
Sometime, I also reduce the color saturation to make the subject looking like...you know, like a "gothic cartoon weapon". Like this M4.

Now we want to see yours!

Lugerdoc,
as I said the chamber date is 1938 and the toggle marking is S/42. I do not have experience on Luger magazine but it should be the standard one. Did you receive my mail?

Thanks everybody

Paolo

Vlim · 07-02-2007, 02:17 PM

Hi,

The proofs show the pistol was proofed in Koln (Cologne) in 1997. Consistent with the refurbishing date. A bit surprising that the refurbished P08s were proofed there, rather than in Ulm, where the other postwar Mauser pistols were proofed.

The gun originally dates from 1938, but was completely restored and reblued by (or a subcontractor for) Mauser.

They were most probably picked from Russian surplus stock. The Russians impounded and stored a large volume of just about anything German they could get their hands on, including P08's.

A number of these guns found their way onto the commercial market in the late 1990s, refurbished for large gun companies like Frankonia.

mauro · 07-02-2007, 02:37 PM

Hi Paolo,
Let me add only a point to the previous correct answer provided by Gerben.
You have to know that starting from 1970 until the beginning of 1990 Mauser built new Parabellum using news tools. These pistols are not refurbished but really new.
Then, around 1995/96, Mauser refurbished old WWII pistols.
These pistols are quite rare therefore your is really interesting.
In addition the fact that was made by Mauser in 9x21 for the Italian market is somthing unusual that, in my undertsnding, increase the interest.

Let me change topic, your pictures are really beautiful. I would like to contact you by email to have some tips about picture management. Do you mind to give it to me?

Cheers,
Mauro

paolo.orange · 07-02-2007, 02:54 PM

Guys,
I simply have no words enough for say thank you for your explainations....coffee free for one week.

No problem Mauro, I just hope to be good enough.
paolo.orange@libero.it

Dwight Gruber · 07-02-2007, 03:18 PM

Guys,

This is a very interesting discussion, and brings forth lots of questions.

What is the common designation for the 9x21 cartridge?

Why is it necessary for use in Italy? is it because the 9x19 Parabellum is a "military" round?

What are the 9x21 characteristics, and how can it be made to work in a Luger?

I'm certain that the green of background paper reflects in the pistol itself. How do you remove it?

--Dwight

John Sabato · 07-02-2007, 03:31 PM

Dwight...

As you have theorized...

As the designation implies, the 9X21 pistol cartridge (that is the "common" designation) was designed specifically for those locations where the possession of 9mm NATO ammo is or was prohibited for civilians. Italy used to be one of those places when I lived there from 1976-1981 and 1986-1987, but that may have changed in Italy since then... I am sure Paulo or Mauro will advise on that.

The casing is 2mm longer and functions in a standard magazine (sort of) by slightly increasing the feed angle to accomodate the length. I Imagine that almost any standard 9mm Parabellum handgun can have the chamber lengthened to accomodate this round. It would be easiest in a Browning type gun with a spare barrel so the calibers would be interchangeable. I remember that my Landlord in Italy on my first tour carried a Browning P-35 that used this cartridge... He was a wealthy man, and I am sure he was licensed... kidnapping was a career path in Italy for many back then, and he told me he would never be taken as a victim. I believed him...

mauro · 07-02-2007, 03:34 PM

Hi Dwight,
I am not the most expert on this matter but I will try to reply to your questions:

1) In Italy the 9x19 para is forbidden for the "civilian" guns, it is only available for the military weapons.
2) All the 9x19 lugers are modified to chamber the 9x21 IMI. As far as I know the barrel is not modified but the chamber yes because of the different lenght of the bullet.

Different situation for the 7,65mm. There are not restriction for this caliber and so the Luger on this caliber are not modified.

Due to the fact that I am not a shooter I cannot say nothing about the different behaviur of the pistol when firing this bullet.

Sorry but I cannot help more.

Lucky the contries that not have this unuseless restriction!!!

Have fun
Mauro

paolo.orange · 07-02-2007, 03:59 PM

All correct John.

There is no real reason to consider the 9x19 a military round but it is still forbidden here. All the hand guns chambered in 9PB in the world are here chambered 9x21. Why ? I have no idea especially considering that we can legally own and shot more powerful "military" caliber like .45, 5.56, .308, also .50Ã¢?Â¦

9x21 perform just like a 9x19, reloading data are the same, same velocityÃ¢?Â¦For example I hand load for my Beretta 98 (your 92) a 125 gr FMJ, 5.5 gr of VV N340 that delivers the same energy of 9PB NATO loaded .

Dwight,
you catch the point! The problem is not which color you pick up, but the color that: 1) itÃ¢??s miles away from the colors of the object, so that the software can easily find it and 2) a color that does not effect the light over the object itself.
Green reflex is so evident while taking the photo that you can adjust you shooting position to minimize that. Also consider that the ambient light was not so bright on purpose, just to avoid reflex. You can correct the relative darkness with some over exposure. If you guys find this technique interesting I can post a step by step sample.

Edward Tinker · 07-02-2007, 05:54 PM

Paolo, you may have had your questions answered, but I was just as interested!

Thanks to Mauro and others for educating us. I did not know that Mauser refurbished WW2 lugers, very cool.

Ed

Dwight Gruber · 07-02-2007, 10:32 PM

Paolo,

I would certainly find a step-by-step example of your photo method very enlightening, thanks!

--Dwight

DaveinTN · 07-02-2007, 11:19 PM

Paolo,

Thanks for the details of your photo technique. While I'm still learning to appreciate the finer points of Lugers (and there are quite a few very knowledgeable folks to learn from on the forum), I know enough about Photoshop to recognize good work when I see it.

I especially like the idea of "signing" your work with an embedded image. It makes it just a little harder for someone to pirate your photo.

Thanks again for sharing your tips.

Dave in TN.

paolo.orange · 07-17-2007, 02:51 PM

Just back from the range.

- 2 hands at 12.5 m
- 10 rounds, RN FMJ 125 gr, AOL 29.8, VV 340 5.1 gr
- 100 Korone 1915

07-01-2007, 05:03 PM	#1
paolo.orange User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Italy Posts: 22 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	My first P08 Ciao everybody, I'm Paolo from Italy and I bought this Mauser yesterday. Rumours here in Italy say that it should be from the '70, reworked by Mauser, but the blueing looks like it was made few days ago. I can tell you that I spent half night removing the preservative grease on the mechanic and the complete absence of wear on the rails shows that it was never fired. Below the trigger plate I found some marking. I've identified the first as a proof of test with smokeless ammo, the second is the logo of the testing facility in Koln-Germany, the third is "KI" that I suspect is the year of the test, but I'm not sure, the forth and last is a kind of "F" on top or 2 "W". I really appreciate if somebody could educated me about my new p08.

07-01-2007, 05:25 PM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,960 Thanks: 2,062 Thanked 4,592 Times in 2,114 Posts	Paolo, we need more information. One picture helps, but is not enough. Either need a bunch more pictures or we need serial number, suffix, proofs on the right, etc. Welcome to the forum! ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

07-01-2007, 05:36 PM	#3
mauro FIREARM HISTORIAN AND AUT Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Belgium Posts: 1,535 Thanks: 106 Thanked 350 Times in 129 Posts	Ciao Paolo, Happy to have another Italian here!! You are right, in the real last period of the Mauser Parabellum production, Mauser refurbished some WWII P08 and offer them on several European markets. At that epoch, Bignami imported some of them in Italy. What it is good of this pistol is that they are made in 9x21 by Mauser and not after the importation in Italy. To have more info you can have a look at my web and click on Ã¢??Mauser Parabellum AreaÃ¢?Â. I have an advertising of Mauser about your pistol. http://www.lugerlp08.com Please do you mind to post some more pics. Grazie e ciao Mauro __________________ Mauro Baudino - www.lugerlp08.com www.paul-mauser-archive.com Mauser Company and Firearm Historian - Mauser Parabellum Certification Service.

07-01-2007, 05:41 PM	#5
mauro FIREARM HISTORIAN AND AUT Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Belgium Posts: 1,535 Thanks: 106 Thanked 350 Times in 129 Posts	Paolo, In addition you can have a look at this topic that I open few months ago about a P08 like yours. http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...ghlight=mauser Ciao Mauro __________________ Mauro Baudino - www.lugerlp08.com www.paul-mauser-archive.com Mauser Company and Firearm Historian - Mauser Parabellum Certification Service.

07-02-2007, 08:37 AM	#6
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 737 Times in 484 Posts	Paolo, From the angle of the camera, I can't read the chamber date and toggle code clearly. Beautiful restoration of a WW2 Mauser PO8. Is Mauro correct that it is not chambered for 9mmP? Rather 9mm Largo or Steyr? That would expain an odd chambered barrel that I thought was in .38 Super. Has the mag area been enlarged to allow a larger magazine to feel these longer cartridges? Mille Gradcia in advance, Tom __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

07-01-2007, 05:36 PM	#4
DaveinTN User Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Tennessee Posts: 186 Thanks: 3 Thanked 15 Times in 11 Posts	Paolo, I'm fairly new to the forum myself and have so far "collected" two Lugers. Neither is as nice as yours. One of my other hobbies is digital photography. Apparently you used a light booth to photograph your pistol. What type camera and photo/graphics software did you use to take and process your photo? Welcome to the forum and be sure to post some more pictures! Dave in TN.

07-02-2007, 12:06 PM	#7
Steinar User Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 1,538 Thanks: 18 Thanked 36 Times in 21 Posts	Posted three months to late? __________________ Previously known as Morgan Kane

07-02-2007, 01:45 PM	#8
paolo.orange User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Italy Posts: 22 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Thanks Mauro, I was pretty sure to eventually see Bignami's fingerprint on that (Bignami is probably the largest distributor of firearms here in Italy) and yes, my assumption is that it was made by Mauser for the Italian marker since the barrel shows a clean "9x21IMI Cat. 10717" that is miles away from the often brutal markings made by the Test Bench in Gardone. So it looks like it was born as a 9x21. These are the markings covered by the side plate. What do you mean about refurbishing? The chamber date is 1938. Does it make sense? I wonder if it's like the MILSTD Colt Government of current production that are built to look like the original M1911A1 but they are not. DaveinTN, I took a picture of that on a clear green piece of paper, 2 or 3 stops over exposed. You can use any different color as a background, but it works better with clear, brilliant colors. I then used ADOBE Photoshop to remove the green background and replace that with 100% white. The idea is to have the P08 looking like it's floating in the vacuum so the viewer can concentrate on the subject and its details. I then added my avatar...usually it's Tahoma but given the subject I thought London Gothic made sense. The shade of the avatar shall look like the shade the gun make and it's shape should suggest it's printed on the ground. Sometime, I also reduce the color saturation to make the subject looking like...you know, like a "gothic cartoon weapon". Like this M4. Now we want to see yours! Lugerdoc, as I said the chamber date is 1938 and the toggle marking is S/42. I do not have experience on Luger magazine but it should be the standard one. Did you receive my mail? Thanks everybody Paolo __________________ Grace under fire, business as usual.

07-02-2007, 02:17 PM	#9
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,990 Times in 1,205 Posts	Hi, The proofs show the pistol was proofed in Koln (Cologne) in 1997. Consistent with the refurbishing date. A bit surprising that the refurbished P08s were proofed there, rather than in Ulm, where the other postwar Mauser pistols were proofed. The gun originally dates from 1938, but was completely restored and reblued by (or a subcontractor for) Mauser. They were most probably picked from Russian surplus stock. The Russians impounded and stored a large volume of just about anything German they could get their hands on, including P08's. A number of these guns found their way onto the commercial market in the late 1990s, refurbished for large gun companies like Frankonia.

07-02-2007, 02:37 PM	#10
mauro FIREARM HISTORIAN AND AUT Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Belgium Posts: 1,535 Thanks: 106 Thanked 350 Times in 129 Posts	Hi Paolo, Let me add only a point to the previous correct answer provided by Gerben. You have to know that starting from 1970 until the beginning of 1990 Mauser built new Parabellum using news tools. These pistols are not refurbished but really new. Then, around 1995/96, Mauser refurbished old WWII pistols. These pistols are quite rare therefore your is really interesting. In addition the fact that was made by Mauser in 9x21 for the Italian market is somthing unusual that, in my undertsnding, increase the interest. Let me change topic, your pictures are really beautiful. I would like to contact you by email to have some tips about picture management. Do you mind to give it to me? Cheers, Mauro __________________ Mauro Baudino - www.lugerlp08.com www.paul-mauser-archive.com Mauser Company and Firearm Historian - Mauser Parabellum Certification Service.

07-02-2007, 02:54 PM	#11
paolo.orange User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Italy Posts: 22 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Guys, I simply have no words enough for say thank you for your explainations....coffee free for one week. No problem Mauro, I just hope to be good enough. paolo.orange@libero.it __________________ Grace under fire, business as usual.

07-02-2007, 03:18 PM	#12
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,908 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,330 Times in 435 Posts	Guys, This is a very interesting discussion, and brings forth lots of questions. What is the common designation for the 9x21 cartridge? Why is it necessary for use in Italy? is it because the 9x19 Parabellum is a "military" round? What are the 9x21 characteristics, and how can it be made to work in a Luger? I'm certain that the green of background paper reflects in the pistol itself. How do you remove it? --Dwight

07-02-2007, 03:31 PM	#13
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,155 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	Dwight... As you have theorized... As the designation implies, the 9X21 pistol cartridge (that is the "common" designation) was designed specifically for those locations where the possession of 9mm NATO ammo is or was prohibited for civilians. Italy used to be one of those places when I lived there from 1976-1981 and 1986-1987, but that may have changed in Italy since then... I am sure Paulo or Mauro will advise on that. The casing is 2mm longer and functions in a standard magazine (sort of) by slightly increasing the feed angle to accomodate the length. I Imagine that almost any standard 9mm Parabellum handgun can have the chamber lengthened to accomodate this round. It would be easiest in a Browning type gun with a spare barrel so the calibers would be interchangeable. I remember that my Landlord in Italy on my first tour carried a Browning P-35 that used this cartridge... He was a wealthy man, and I am sure he was licensed... kidnapping was a career path in Italy for many back then, and he told me he would never be taken as a victim. I believed him... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

07-02-2007, 03:34 PM	#14
mauro FIREARM HISTORIAN AND AUT Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Belgium Posts: 1,535 Thanks: 106 Thanked 350 Times in 129 Posts	Hi Dwight, I am not the most expert on this matter but I will try to reply to your questions: 1) In Italy the 9x19 para is forbidden for the "civilian" guns, it is only available for the military weapons. 2) All the 9x19 lugers are modified to chamber the 9x21 IMI. As far as I know the barrel is not modified but the chamber yes because of the different lenght of the bullet. Different situation for the 7,65mm. There are not restriction for this caliber and so the Luger on this caliber are not modified. Due to the fact that I am not a shooter I cannot say nothing about the different behaviur of the pistol when firing this bullet. Sorry but I cannot help more. Lucky the contries that not have this unuseless restriction!!! Have fun Mauro __________________ Mauro Baudino - www.lugerlp08.com www.paul-mauser-archive.com Mauser Company and Firearm Historian - Mauser Parabellum Certification Service.

07-02-2007, 03:59 PM	#15
paolo.orange User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Italy Posts: 22 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	All correct John. There is no real reason to consider the 9x19 a military round but it is still forbidden here. All the hand guns chambered in 9PB in the world are here chambered 9x21. Why ? I have no idea especially considering that we can legally own and shot more powerful "military" caliber like .45, 5.56, .308, also .50Ã¢?Â¦ 9x21 perform just like a 9x19, reloading data are the same, same velocityÃ¢?Â¦For example I hand load for my Beretta 98 (your 92) a 125 gr FMJ, 5.5 gr of VV N340 that delivers the same energy of 9PB NATO loaded . Dwight, you catch the point! The problem is not which color you pick up, but the color that: 1) itÃ¢??s miles away from the colors of the object, so that the software can easily find it and 2) a color that does not effect the light over the object itself. Green reflex is so evident while taking the photo that you can adjust you shooting position to minimize that. Also consider that the ambient light was not so bright on purpose, just to avoid reflex. You can correct the relative darkness with some over exposure. If you guys find this technique interesting I can post a step by step sample. __________________ Grace under fire, business as usual.

07-02-2007, 05:54 PM	#16
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,960 Thanks: 2,062 Thanked 4,592 Times in 2,114 Posts	Paolo, you may have had your questions answered, but I was just as interested! Thanks to Mauro and others for educating us. I did not know that Mauser refurbished WW2 lugers, very cool. Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

07-02-2007, 10:32 PM	#17
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,908 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,330 Times in 435 Posts	Paolo, I would certainly find a step-by-step example of your photo method very enlightening, thanks! --Dwight

07-02-2007, 11:19 PM	#18
DaveinTN User Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Tennessee Posts: 186 Thanks: 3 Thanked 15 Times in 11 Posts	Paolo, Thanks for the details of your photo technique. While I'm still learning to appreciate the finer points of Lugers (and there are quite a few very knowledgeable folks to learn from on the forum), I know enough about Photoshop to recognize good work when I see it. I especially like the idea of "signing" your work with an embedded image. It makes it just a little harder for someone to pirate your photo. Thanks again for sharing your tips. Dave in TN.

07-17-2007, 02:51 PM	#19
paolo.orange User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Italy Posts: 22 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Just back from the range. - 2 hands at 12.5 m - 10 rounds, RN FMJ 125 gr, AOL 29.8, VV 340 5.1 gr - 100 Korone 1915 __________________ Grace under fire, business as usual.