Mixed Shooter, is it possible to date DWM toggle assembly and Mauser frame?

[Quentin]

I have a Frankenstein Luger with major assemblies cannibalized from 3 Military P08s. The craftsman who assembled it was a much better doctor than Victor Frankenstein though as this is a nice shooter, reliable and accurate. I've put about 3,000 rounds through it over the years with very few stoppages. Even when the toggle/receiver pin sheared in half the pistol continued to fire. (I didn't discover it until cleaning the Luger afterward and of course replaced the pin.)

The barrel and receiver are mates from a 1938 S/42 style Mauser as they both have the serial number 213, however on the receiver 213 is struck out and 4162 is struck above. 1938 of course appears on top of the receiver. They must be salt blued as the receiver is a plum color while the barrel is darker blue.

The frame is from another Mauser I believe and is numbered 4547i (not overstruck). I've been told it may be from 1936 judging from that number but don't know if a frame can be dated by its SN.

The toggle assembly is DWM with matching numbers of 54. I've been told it may be from 1925 but don't know if it can be dated that accurately.

The small parts are all numbered differently but everything works well together and wear patterns (especially the side plate and frame) indicate this piece has been a single unit for a long time. I suspect it was assembled from damaged pistols and spare parts, reworked and reissued in the latter part of WWII, certainly after 1938.

Maybe the overstruck SN was a way to track the pistol for inventory and the damaged guns were written off as lost or destroyed. (Don't know how much accurate inventory mattered at that time, though.) I assume the overstruck 4162 on the receiver would be considered the SN but it's not likely to be unique since there may have been dozens of 1938s with 4126 and a small letter added.

Is it possible to determine the year of a DWM toggle assembly and a Mauser frame? I'm happy with this Luger, not planning to sell it, just curious about its parts.

Thanks for reading and I'll try to get some pictures posted if anyone is interested.

[Dwight Gruber]

Bob,

The odds are against finding an answer to your question. Nonetheless, pictures would be useful.

Is the frame stamped P-08 on the left frame panel? Is the center toggle numbered on top or underneath? Are there stamps on either (or both) sides of the brechblock? Is the firing pin numbered? fluted? Was the original toggle pin (the one that broke) numbered? Are there marks stamped in the frame lug well?

--Dwight

[Frank]

Hi Quentin, I can't speak about the toggle and receiver, but I don't think there is a great possibility to identify these parts. Now the frame. Serial number 4547i could be from a 1936, 1938, 1940 or 1942 Mauser Luger.

If the rear of the frame doesn't have a Mauser "Hump", it's from a 1936.

If the rear part of the left side, just in front of the safety lever is marked P.08, then it's from a 1942.

If it isn't from 1936 or 1942, then it's either from a 1938 or 1940!!

Hope this helps!!

[Edward Tinker]

Official reworks would have matching numbers on the parts. So either new parts would have been used, parts renumbered as the east germans did or infrequently stamped over the number (you see police reworks like this at times), although usually new parts were used most often.

It is not likely that "parts" were put together during the war. Even in the mid 1940's something reworked would have used new parts. It is "possible" that during war time that several guns were put together, but I would count on that as my number one story as it is much more liekly that parts were put together over the last 55 years...


Ed

[Quentin]

Thanks for the excellent information Dwight, Frank and Ed! I really appreciate it.

Originally posted by Frank
...If the rear of the frame doesn't have a Mauser "Hump", it's from a 1936...

Looks like it's a 1936 then! After looking at the FAQs here and comparing pictures I don't see a hump on this frame. FAQ #27. "What is a Mauser Bump?" describes the hump but doesn't have a great picture. However by chance FAQ #6 "What are machine markings?" seems to have a fine looking hump (and my frame does not).

Frank, is the serial number information that indicates 4547i is from 1936, 1938, 1940 or 1942 available here? I'd love to see that if you have a link to it or can point me to it. (And it's nice that you could eliminate the possibility of 4547i in 1937 and 1939 and 1941.)

Thanks again for the info guys! I will try to get some good pictures posted as this is a fine shooter!

Bob

[Dwight Gruber]

Bob,

The absence of the Mauser "hump" only tells us that it is -not- a post-1936 Mauser frame. No information so far prohibits the frame from being DWM or Erfurt--which is why pictures are useful.

The serial number information is found in Jan Still's Third Reich Lugers.

--Dwight

[Frank]

Quentin, Dwight is absolutely correct. I should have said, IF it's a Mauser, then ... But it certainly could be a DWM frame. The metal sizes near the rear of the frame are slightly different between DWM and Mauser, so good clean photos are important.

[drbuster]

Hey guys, don't forget the Mauser "hole" found on the groove of the stocklug near the top. It's pretty consistent except for "K" date frames.

[Quentin]

Thanks again guys! I disassembled the Luger and am scanning in the pieces to get hi-res images. I'll get good pictures posted tomorrow.

Edit:
Wow! The asking price for a used copy of Jan Still's Third Reich Lugers is $600+ on Amazon.com! That's about what my Luger is worth!

[Quentin]

Ok, I had to resize two pictures of the frame to get them within the file size restrictions. Here goes nothing, first time I've tried to post a picture...

[Quentin]

Originally posted by drbuster
Hey guys, don't forget the Mauser "hole" found on the groove of the stocklug near the top. It's pretty consistent except for "K" date frames.

Hmmm, maybe this is a 1936 Mauser frame then. Thanks Dr! With the stocks removed, on the left side of the frame I see a hole there. Right above the magazine release where the stock lug fits in the groove.

Thanks again and I'll get more pictures posted tomorrow!

Edit: more pictures...
Edit again: change url to img

[Frank]

Quentin, Doc is right about the hole in the stock lug. Your pictures show me that it is probably a DWM Frame, not a Mauser! If so it could be a 1915,16, 17, 18.

[Quentin]

Guess I don't understand exactly where you guys are talking about. Would that be visible on the right side or left?

"Mauser "hole" found on the groove of the stocklug near the top..."

Of course if it was there it would help!

DWM then? And that old, well the toggle is DWM so someone had old parts to go with the 1938 barrel and receiver.

Hey Frank, in Feb/March I was down in Phoenix and Mesa/Gilbert! Lived there 30 years until retiring and moving to Idaho. Summers got too much for my wife. Bought both of my Lugers in AZ. (The other is a 1941 byf in nice condition with matching numbers, I'll have to do another thread for it. Wish I had it handy now so I could see the hole you're talking about and the Mauser hump, too!)

I really appreciate the help guys! Oh, I pasted in links to more pictures in my last post.

Bob

[Ron Wood]

Bob,
This is the "hole" at the top of the stock lug groove that is definitively Mauser.

This is the Mauser hump.

[Quentin]

Thanks for the excellent pictures, Ron!

Oh yeah, stock lug, I knew that ... as in rifle stock lug! (Very embarrassed!)

Somehow I was trying to turn that into the hole where the left stock/grip fits at the top. .

Anyway, my pictures don't show the stock lug as clearly as your picture so I just took my jeweler's Afga Lupe and there is no hole drilled at the top of the stock lug on either side. In your picture it sure looks like there's a hole drilled at the top of the lug.

So the frame is a WWII DWM! Thanks so much for that info. Didn't expect that.

Guess there's no way to figure out the year since the frame was separated from the receiver. And still there is no way to know when my Luger was pieced together other than sometime after the barrel and receiver were made in 1938. I bought the pistol in the early 1970s so somewhere in that 40 year period!

You guys are amazing, I've owned this Luger 30 years and read my books "The Luger Pistol", "Lugers At Random" and " The Luger Story" and never heard about the Mauser hump or hole! , but learned more about it in 24 hours than I have in in the years before!

[lugerholsterrepair]

Quentin, "So the frame is a WWII DWM! NOOOOO. DWM only made pistols during WW1. They quit making Luger pistols after 1918 when the Armistice was signed that ended the war. Jerry Burney

[Quentin]

Whoops, thanks Jerry! That was a typo, I meant WWI. Anyway, again I sure appreciate all the help, you guys sure know your stuff! I plan to stick around and learn.

Now I get to ponder why a 1938 Mauser barrel/receiver was pieced together with a frame and toggle assembly from 1918 or earlier! And why the receiver SN was overstruck with a new number. Oh well no one can know for sure when or why, there are dozens of scenarios. Still I now know a lot more about this Luger! Hmmm, it's very tempting to try to find a DWM barrel/receiver to make this a true WWI pistol as I do have a WWII 1941 byf.

This does bring up a new question: this still is just a $600 shooter, right? The older DWM frame doesn't change anything? I guess with all the mixed part numbers if something breaks, I just replace it, guess it can't get more mismatched than it already is!

[Quentin]

Oh I forgot to ask something about the barrel and receiver. They should be mates since both have a serial number of 213 (before 213 was overstruck on the receiver).

There is is no cursive little letter below 213 on the barrel so that means it was in the first 10000 of 1938? The 213th in that series?

Thanks again,

Bob

[Frank]

Quentin, the Mauser Military Lugers had a different numbering system than the DWM Lugers. The first Mauser Luger was completed in 1934 and was designated 1. After that they went to 9999, the next number was 1a and completed that years production around 920a. They went on to the 1935 production starting at number (about) 921a and continued to 9999a. then 1b to 9999b and so on. They didn't start the numbers at 1 for each new year, they just continued the numbering sequence.

Next, unlike DWM, Mauser didn't add the letter suffix to the barrel. The only place the suffix appears is on the front of the frame!

Hope this helps!

[Quentin]

Thanks again Frank, that clears things up a lot! I've seen the letter suffix in pictures of DWM barrels so assumed Mauser did the same. I'm still trying to get a grasp on military numbering. Wish I could take a look at Jan Still's Third Reich Lugers, but it's out of print with a used hardback going at Amazon for $600+! Also wish I had my 41 byf handy as I could learn more about Mauser from it as it's a matching parts Luger not a mix&match like the one pictured above.

You cleared up Mauser P.08 numbering for me, too. I had assumed that each calendar year the numbering started again at 1. But I knew something didn't make sense because my 41 byf SN# 7345u would be around the 207,345th P08 of 1941 yet I'd read only about 160,000 actually were made. But what about 9999z (about 260,000 if I'm figuring right 26x10000), wouldn't Mauser have to go back to 1 since they made more than 260,000 P.08s during WWII? (I've read "j" was not used so 260,000 would be the maximum number, not 270,000.)

Also I guess in WWI, DWM didn't drop back to 1 at the beginning of each calander year? But then they made something like 850,000 P.08s so they would have run out of letter suffixes too!

Sorry to have so many questions, just trying to sort this all out and it's great to talk with guys who know their stuff!

Bob