Heads up: Russian Luger... 1906

Bob in OH · 02-07-2007, 03:17 AM

There is one currently on auction that's at 4K... Check out gunrunnerauctions.com

The auction ends tonight 2/7 @ 1800 EST

Are these as "rare" as the gun auction suggests? Here's what was written:

"German Luger 1906 Russian, 9mm auto pistol. Serial #1287. Rare Russian contract. Very good condition. Bluing is 90%, walnut grips are very good. Correct vivid markings or a Russian: Crossed rifles on breech ring, DWM on toggle, Cyrillic safety markings. Grip safety. 4" barrel with very good bore. Matching serials frame, barrel, takedown lever, sideplate, toggle. Straw is 20% on trigger, 70% on magazine catch, 20% on safety latch. As you know, one of the rarest Lugers out there. Super investment piece! You're going to look long and hard for another Russian, don't pass this one up. The ultimate Luger collector. C&R OK."

I'm not a fan of the seller and certainly have no connection to this piece...

Ron Wood · 02-07-2007, 10:53 AM

They are as rare as the auction suggests. This one has a higher serial number than any others I have encountered (usually only three digits) but that doesn't necessarily mean it isn't right. It is hard to tell from internet photos but certainly looks good. If it is a fake it is the best I have seen so far, and if it is legitimate its current bid is about 1/3 of its collector value.

Tony S. · 02-07-2007, 11:14 AM

Isn't that number high for a Russian Luger? It looks like some of the guns for sale in the auction are re-blued (P-38s(. Anyway, I placed a bid on the mismatched Simson.
"SEMPER PARATUS"

Edward Tinker · 02-07-2007, 11:24 AM

Tony, I see it is a $1260 and you were outbid. I was considering this one too, although being a defiinate sideplate mismatch, I don't think it is worth over $1250 in todays market and that is higher than I would have bid....

Ed

Tony S. · 02-07-2007, 06:39 PM

As I was posting my last reply someone outbid me. Anyway, those were my thoughts too, hence my highest bid for $1250. If it was all matching, maybe more, but not for a mismatch. I think that I will have to go for the Banner!

SteveM · 02-07-2007, 07:18 PM

$8050 on the Russian..wonder what the fat barrel will go for.

thegundude · 02-07-2007, 08:14 PM

Oh great! That's all I need. ANOTHER gun auction site!

They have a nice selection of Lugers that you don't see everyday. But things tend to sell at top dollar prices too...

Pete Ebbink · 02-07-2007, 10:06 PM

Steve,

What can you tell me might not be right with this one ?

http://www.gunrunnerauctions.com/lis...mnum=854991338

Bob in OH · 02-07-2007, 10:15 PM

I live a stone's throw from the seller. I must admit, he's not into helping collectors, nor wanting to learn, or being square with buyers. He's interested in his 15%... AS explicitly stated by the seller... caveat emptor.

The collection of P.38 and P.08s could not be field stripped (on this auction and I wonder why). Sure, he represents the consigner, but he's one of many carnival barkers selling stuff on todays market....

As always, the buyer better know more than the seller and ask great questions before swallowing the bait...

thegundude · 02-07-2007, 10:27 PM

Pete, I sure don't know. Now that you mention it I'm looking it over with a fine toothed comb but I'm not a big expert of Swiss Lugers. It was one of the ones I was drooling over though. Awfully nice finish and grips. The grips don't look right but I doubt that's it.

Can you give me a hint?

Pete Ebbink · 02-07-2007, 10:54 PM

Hi Steve,

Actually the '24 Bern luger made by the Swiss was supposed to be identical to the M1906 DWM had made for them but stopped with the outbreak of WWI. But the Swiss went with their own version of grips with the plain borders along their sides. You only see this on the '24 Bern lugers.

Take a look at this luger's toggle knobs...it should have the "dicing" pattern of the German-made M1906 lugers.

You don't see them do you ???

The toggle knobs/link on this '24 Bern is actually a spare part from the Swiss M1929 Bern luger...those knobs were made smooth with no dicing or lateral grooves.

thegundude · 02-08-2007, 09:25 AM

Oh... yeah, I see it. Good eye, Pete.

I still wouldn't mind adding it to my collection though.

I've been looking for something with a Swiss type grip safety but they command such high prices. Even for the mismatched shooters...

Lyn Islaub · 02-09-2007, 04:56 PM

Nice catch Pete and If I'm not mistaken the magazine bottom is wrong too.
Lyn

Pete Ebbink · 02-09-2007, 05:11 PM

Hi Lyn,

Actually...a Swiss metal disk, insert mag for a '24 Bern would be wrong. The '24 Bern mag is plain wood, usually not numbered (but some are with 2-digits) and have unique traits that set them off from DWM plain wood, commercial magazines.

BTW...the '24 Bern term is wrong as well...but I am just to lazy to type out "M1906 W+F" all the time...

The Swiss left a little more shape of the "knobs" along the bottom of the wood. And I think the concentric circle of each finger knob is a bit more fat is shape than DWM.

The plating on a Bern magazine tube is usually a bit more "matte" in finish as well.

I think the magazine with this auction luger might actually be a '24 Bern magazine.

I will post up photos of 3 '24 Bern magazines I own...

southriv · 02-09-2007, 11:03 PM

From Bob in Ohio: "I live a stone's throw from the seller. I must admit, he's not into helping collectors, nor wanting to learn, or being square with buyers. He's interested in his 15%... AS explicitly stated by the seller... caveat emptor. "

I bought an auction piece from them a couple years ago. They were not a big help in authenticating the item. It was a mismatch presented as original. I got burned and stuck with a piece that was worth half of what I paid. Luckily it was not super expensive. Still, they do not provide good enough close-ups or phone help. When I have dealt with a auction houses, they will dismantle a gun to check what I need to know.

Personally, I think many of these Lugers look "touched up"

Bob

southriv · 02-09-2007, 11:03 PM

From Bob in Ohio: "I live a stone's throw from the seller. I must admit, he's not into helping collectors, nor wanting to learn, or being square with buyers. He's interested in his 15%... AS explicitly stated by the seller... caveat emptor. "

I bought an auction piece from them a couple years ago. They were not a big help in authenticating the item. It was a mismatch presented as original. I got burned and stuck with a piece that was worth half of what I paid. Luckily it was not super expensive. Still, they do not provide good enough close-ups or phone help. When I have dealt with real auction houses, they will dismantle a gun to check what I need to know.

Personally, I think many of these Lugers look "touched up"

Bob

southriv · 02-10-2007, 10:22 AM

For what it's worth, my amatuer opinion on the Fat Barrel:

It definately a wide trigger gun, which is correct, but the barrel and side plate appear to be replacements. I noted with interest that the current high bidder is Revshop - aka Midwest Firearms, of which there has been some disussion. To me, it just does not look right and in the same way many of the Lugers in this series of auctions look, well - off. If this were real, it would hit 15-20k on a place like Rock Island Auctions.

Bob

Pete Ebbink · 02-10-2007, 01:02 PM

Bob,

Some of us have captured photos of this AE FB over on Jan's Gun Boards.

Serial is now noted as well with a member at the preview days...in case this one surfaces, again, for sale in the future.

Pete Ebbink · 09-07-2007, 07:43 PM

Bob,

I had an exchange with this fellow about a recent Swiss Luger that was actually a '24 Bern dressed up and forged to look more like a M1906 Cross/Shield.

Owner of the auction house basically said he is there to sell and make money and buyer buys at their risk...

He also threw some insults my way and said the only "expert" opinion he listens to is from some west-coast fellow with over 500 guns for sale...

Th gun in question went for $ 2600 or so...one day the new owner will find out what he/she has and then will probably dump it in some other auction house venue. Bad guns seem to be like bad burritos...they burn several times on the way down.

Here is the posting I did over on Jan's Gun Boards about that particular gun :

http://luger.gunboards.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12502

I decided then not to give them any of my business.

They do have this statement on their web site in their "About Us" section...

It might need an edit...

" You will find The Gunrunner to be a different type of gun store. We are NICE, learned, and always willing to talk at length with you. We are hunters, guides, collectors, competitive shooters - WE HAVE BEEN THERE. All of The Gunrunner employees are shooters/collectors/hunters - we LOVE guns and the people who collect them. We sure look forward to talking with you about your needs! "

But with gun shop counter help like this, I am sure they get lots of street traffic coming in...

The guys in the shops around my home seem to only bathe once per month...

drbuster · 09-09-2007, 07:48 PM

Pete, I wonder who the "west coast fellow" is? Thanks for your persistence in exposing this "profit at any cost" seller.

02-07-2007, 10:53 AM	#2
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,992 Thanks: 1,067 Thanked 5,104 Times in 1,679 Posts	They are as rare as the auction suggests. This one has a higher serial number than any others I have encountered (usually only three digits) but that doesn't necessarily mean it isn't right. It is hard to tell from internet photos but certainly looks good. If it is a fake it is the best I have seen so far, and if it is legitimate its current bid is about 1/3 of its collector value. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

02-07-2007, 11:24 AM	#4
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,916 Thanks: 1,995 Thanked 4,507 Times in 2,081 Posts	Tony, I see it is a $1260 and you were outbid. I was considering this one too, although being a defiinate sideplate mismatch, I don't think it is worth over $1250 in todays market and that is higher than I would have bid.... Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

02-07-2007, 08:14 PM	#7
thegundude User Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Western NC Posts: 1,137 Thanks: 3 Thanked 16 Times in 3 Posts	Oh great! That's all I need. ANOTHER gun auction site! They have a nice selection of Lugers that you don't see everyday. But things tend to sell at top dollar prices too... __________________ Keep your knees in the breeze and your iron in the air. ~Steve

02-07-2007, 10:27 PM	#10
thegundude User Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Western NC Posts: 1,137 Thanks: 3 Thanked 16 Times in 3 Posts	Pete, I sure don't know. Now that you mention it I'm looking it over with a fine toothed comb but I'm not a big expert of Swiss Lugers. It was one of the ones I was drooling over though. Awfully nice finish and grips. The grips don't look right but I doubt that's it. Can you give me a hint? __________________ Keep your knees in the breeze and your iron in the air. ~Steve

02-07-2007, 03:17 AM	#1
Bob in OH User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: NE OH Posts: 129 Thanks: 1 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Heads up: Russian Luger... 1906 There is one currently on auction that's at 4K... Check out gunrunnerauctions.com The auction ends tonight 2/7 @ 1800 EST Are these as "rare" as the gun auction suggests? Here's what was written: "German Luger 1906 Russian, 9mm auto pistol. Serial #1287. Rare Russian contract. Very good condition. Bluing is 90%, walnut grips are very good. Correct vivid markings or a Russian: Crossed rifles on breech ring, DWM on toggle, Cyrillic safety markings. Grip safety. 4" barrel with very good bore. Matching serials frame, barrel, takedown lever, sideplate, toggle. Straw is 20% on trigger, 70% on magazine catch, 20% on safety latch. As you know, one of the rarest Lugers out there. Super investment piece! You're going to look long and hard for another Russian, don't pass this one up. The ultimate Luger collector. C&R OK." I'm not a fan of the seller and certainly have no connection to this piece...

02-07-2007, 11:14 AM	#3
Tony S. User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Virginia Posts: 173 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Isn't that number high for a Russian Luger? It looks like some of the guns for sale in the auction are re-blued (P-38s(. Anyway, I placed a bid on the mismatched Simson. "SEMPER PARATUS"

02-07-2007, 06:39 PM	#5
Tony S. User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Virginia Posts: 173 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	As I was posting my last reply someone outbid me. Anyway, those were my thoughts too, hence my highest bid for $1250. If it was all matching, maybe more, but not for a mismatch. I think that I will have to go for the Banner!

02-07-2007, 07:18 PM	#6
SteveM User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 1,016 Thanks: 94 Thanked 275 Times in 137 Posts	$8050 on the Russian..wonder what the fat barrel will go for.

02-07-2007, 10:06 PM	#8
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Steve, What can you tell me might not be right with this one ? http://www.gunrunnerauctions.com/lis...mnum=854991338

02-07-2007, 10:15 PM	#9
Bob in OH User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: NE OH Posts: 129 Thanks: 1 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	I live a stone's throw from the seller. I must admit, he's not into helping collectors, nor wanting to learn, or being square with buyers. He's interested in his 15%... AS explicitly stated by the seller... caveat emptor. The collection of P.38 and P.08s could not be field stripped (on this auction and I wonder why). Sure, he represents the consigner, but he's one of many carnival barkers selling stuff on todays market.... As always, the buyer better know more than the seller and ask great questions before swallowing the bait...

02-07-2007, 10:54 PM	#11
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hi Steve, Actually the '24 Bern luger made by the Swiss was supposed to be identical to the M1906 DWM had made for them but stopped with the outbreak of WWI. But the Swiss went with their own version of grips with the plain borders along their sides. You only see this on the '24 Bern lugers. Take a look at this luger's toggle knobs...it should have the "dicing" pattern of the German-made M1906 lugers. You don't see them do you ??? The toggle knobs/link on this '24 Bern is actually a spare part from the Swiss M1929 Bern luger...those knobs were made smooth with no dicing or lateral grooves.

02-08-2007, 09:25 AM	#12
thegundude User Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Western NC Posts: 1,137 Thanks: 3 Thanked 16 Times in 3 Posts	Oh... yeah, I see it. Good eye, Pete. I still wouldn't mind adding it to my collection though. I've been looking for something with a Swiss type grip safety but they command such high prices. Even for the mismatched shooters... __________________ Keep your knees in the breeze and your iron in the air. ~Steve

02-09-2007, 04:56 PM	#13
Lyn Islaub Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 435 Thanks: 3 Thanked 152 Times in 72 Posts	Nice catch Pete and If I'm not mistaken the magazine bottom is wrong too. Lyn

02-09-2007, 05:11 PM	#14
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hi Lyn, Actually...a Swiss metal disk, insert mag for a '24 Bern would be wrong. The '24 Bern mag is plain wood, usually not numbered (but some are with 2-digits) and have unique traits that set them off from DWM plain wood, commercial magazines. BTW...the '24 Bern term is wrong as well...but I am just to lazy to type out "M1906 W+F" all the time... The Swiss left a little more shape of the "knobs" along the bottom of the wood. And I think the concentric circle of each finger knob is a bit more fat is shape than DWM. The plating on a Bern magazine tube is usually a bit more "matte" in finish as well. I think the magazine with this auction luger might actually be a '24 Bern magazine. I will post up photos of 3 '24 Bern magazines I own...

02-09-2007, 11:03 PM	#15
southriv User Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Countryside New England Posts: 148 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	From Bob in Ohio: "I live a stone's throw from the seller. I must admit, he's not into helping collectors, nor wanting to learn, or being square with buyers. He's interested in his 15%... AS explicitly stated by the seller... caveat emptor. " I bought an auction piece from them a couple years ago. They were not a big help in authenticating the item. It was a mismatch presented as original. I got burned and stuck with a piece that was worth half of what I paid. Luckily it was not super expensive. Still, they do not provide good enough close-ups or phone help. When I have dealt with a auction houses, they will dismantle a gun to check what I need to know. Personally, I think many of these Lugers look "touched up" Bob

02-10-2007, 10:22 AM	#17
southriv User Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Countryside New England Posts: 148 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	For what it's worth, my amatuer opinion on the Fat Barrel: It definately a wide trigger gun, which is correct, but the barrel and side plate appear to be replacements. I noted with interest that the current high bidder is Revshop - aka Midwest Firearms, of which there has been some disussion. To me, it just does not look right and in the same way many of the Lugers in this series of auctions look, well - off. If this were real, it would hit 15-20k on a place like Rock Island Auctions. Bob

02-10-2007, 01:02 PM	#18
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Bob, Some of us have captured photos of this AE FB over on Jan's Gun Boards. Serial is now noted as well with a member at the preview days...in case this one surfaces, again, for sale in the future.

09-07-2007, 07:43 PM	#19
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Bob, I had an exchange with this fellow about a recent Swiss Luger that was actually a '24 Bern dressed up and forged to look more like a M1906 Cross/Shield. Owner of the auction house basically said he is there to sell and make money and buyer buys at their risk... He also threw some insults my way and said the only "expert" opinion he listens to is from some west-coast fellow with over 500 guns for sale... Th gun in question went for $ 2600 or so...one day the new owner will find out what he/she has and then will probably dump it in some other auction house venue. Bad guns seem to be like bad burritos...they burn several times on the way down. Here is the posting I did over on Jan's Gun Boards about that particular gun : http://luger.gunboards.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12502 I decided then not to give them any of my business. They do have this statement on their web site in their "About Us" section... It might need an edit... " You will find The Gunrunner to be a different type of gun store. We are NICE, learned, and always willing to talk at length with you. We are hunters, guides, collectors, competitive shooters - WE HAVE BEEN THERE. All of The Gunrunner employees are shooters/collectors/hunters - we LOVE guns and the people who collect them. We sure look forward to talking with you about your needs! " But with gun shop counter help like this, I am sure they get lots of street traffic coming in... The guys in the shops around my home seem to only bathe once per month...

09-09-2007, 07:48 PM	#20
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Pete, I wonder who the "west coast fellow" is? Thanks for your persistence in exposing this "profit at any cost" seller.